Shake It Off Podcast – Episode 1

KENDRA: Welcome to shake it off a podcast that gives you the tools, strategies, and stories to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health. Hello, and welcome back to shake it off. Today we are going to talk about burnout, which is a topic that is near and dear to both Lauren’s heart and my heart. So we both experienced job burnout throughout our careers. And we thought we’d kick off this podcast episode by just giving the definition of what burnout actually is. So burnout is described as a condition experienced by parents and professionals, in which they develop depression-like symptoms as a result of aspects of their role. Burnout may manifest is showing signs of physical, mental, and or emotional exhaustion as a result of stress related to their job at home or in the workplace. So burnout isn’t a medical diagnosis as such, but researchers point out that individual factors such as personality traits, and workplace culture, influence who experiences job burnout. So Lauren, did you want to tell us about burnout? And what it actually looks like?

LAUREN: Yes, it’s a really good question as far as what it looks like because it’s so different for everybody. So some people might experience symptoms of, you know, exhaustion and fatigue, some people have a lack of apathy when it comes to work. But there’s a five-stage model that I use with clients that really helps them determine where they’re at, in this chronic stress, burnout kind of cycle. And the five-stage model basically looks like the first phase of honeymoon phase, which is when you’re first starting a new job, you’re really excited about it, and you’re enthusiastic about the work, then it kind of moves into stress, which is normal for people to experience. And we can usually bounce back pretty quickly from stress, it starts to feel a little bit like stagnation. Or maybe you’re feeling stuck when, when the stress then starts to move to chronic stress. And chronic stress really looks like frustration and agitation. And you’re probably starting to isolate a little bit at work and from your friends, spending a lot of time working on whatever project so it can be at home, you can experience job burnout, and you can experience burnout related to your work in the home if you’re a stay at home parent. And so the fourth stage is burnout. And that looks like apathy, you’re feeling disconnected from your work, and you’re probably waking up still after eight hours of sleep and feeling exhausted. And then it moves into habitual burnout, which is the fifth stage. And that really requires an event intervention at that stage. And usually, once you’re in habitual burnout, you’ll notice that people really have to leave the job to be able to take time out to recover. So really the aim is to help people prevent becoming habitually burnout. Another big indicator of habitual burnout is usually some type of, you know, using of substances to numb but we’ll move into that in just a minute.

KENDRA: Yeah, it’s so interesting how you talk about these different stages, because I reflect back on my experience, and I absolutely know that I went through those, those various stages. So I’m curious, what are the indicators for people to know what stage they’re at? In relation to as you mentioned with the five-stage model?

LAUREN: Yeah, that’s a good question. So whenever I’m working with clients, I asked them a series of questions to know if they’re moving toward burnout. Now, I also have a list of symptoms for each of the stages. So to help people determine what stage they might be in. So the questions to ask to know, kind of where you’re at on that five-stage model. I’ll go through them now. But really, it’s it depends on the number of symptoms you’re experiencing, and the level of severity of the symptoms. So the question to ask or do you wake up and still feel exhausted? Do you find it hard to concentrate? Do you lack satisfaction from your achievements? Are you using addiction? So it could be food, drugs, alcohol, gambling, to feel better, or to simply not feel and have your sleep habits changed? Another question is do you drag yourself to work or have trouble getting started in the morning? Do you lack the energy to be productive and have you become irritable? or impatient with coworkers or customers or clients, or your family? And if you answered yes to any of these questions, you might be experiencing burnout. But it’s really important that you consider talking to your doctor or psychologist because the symptoms can also be related to health conditions such as depression. Because burnout, by definition, is depression-like symptoms. So it’s good to be able to look at that and know where you’re at. But also to make sure you talk to your doctor.

KENDRA: That’s really interesting. They’re great self-reflective questions to ask yourself, again, I’m just going back to where I was at that stage, those questions would have been so helpful for me going through that process. So I’m interested to hear your perspective. So if I’m experiencing a lot of those burnout symptoms, what would you recommend that I would do next?

LAUREN: So after I look at the symptoms with a client, then we look at the causes of stress and burnout. And there are both internal and external factors that can cause and contribute to somebody experiencing burnout. And once we know the cause, the great thing is, is that then we can actually set goals to address those causes.

KENDRA: And what are those particular causes of stress and burnout?

LAUREN: That’s a good question. So some of the causes of stress and burnout when we think about internal factors. So those are factors that are related to the personality characteristics of the person, and are, do you have a strong need for recognition and needing to feel validated from others, that can be a big cause for burnout. And this need for perfectionism. And struggling is a big indicator of perfectionism and what so what sucks a lot of energy, for perfectionist this struggle with admitting mistakes and failures. And so it can be related to your role at work or at home. But this is usually because you don’t feel comfortable or safe to admit that you’re struggling. And that you’re you don’t really know how to take responsibility for your mistakes. 

KENDRA: Can I interject? Yeah, I feel like that, that striving for perfectionism. I’m sure a lot of people can relate to that within their professional worlds, as well as being you know, and or parents that particularly, you know, in a world that, you know, a social media, there are many, I guess, stressors to create this perfectionism within our rounds. And so I can imagine a lot of people can relate to that in both areas.

LAUREN: Oh, yeah, for sure. I think that is such a big indicator. And there’s a whole process that we use around that around tackling perfectionism, because I think that if we can work on both those internal factors and then also look at the external environment, which is the workplace, then we can have a good plan moving forward. So you’re right, I find that most of my clients have some degree of perfectionism that they’re working on. Another big one is people pleasing. So always wanting to please others and suppressing your own needs in that process. So that’s another process that we went through is really identifying what your needs are, and then practicing asking for what you need.

KENDRA: I can imagine that is, you know, diving into actually setting more boundaries around being able to say no to particular events and activities that might happen and just setting that time for yourself. So I just think that’s.

LAUREN: Right, yeah, it is. It’s kind of getting a good feeling. And it’s like a process of setting boundaries, because you’re learning what are the things that make you contract and the things that make you anxious and the things that make you not be able to experience flow basically, in your day, and those are the things that you really want to set some boundaries around so that you can start to lift the burnout feeling that occurs. So yeah, boundaries are such a big part of it. The other thing is the external factors having to do with the workplace. So having a heavy workload where you never feel like tasks are finished and you never feel like you have a break before moving on to the next huge project. Or if you work long hours, those are big red flags and contributing factors for job burnout, if you feel like you have little or no control over your work, so the hours that you work and the type of work that you engage in, you don’t actually get a say in and if your work takes up so much of your time and effort that you don’t have the energy to spend time with your family and friends. You might quickly notice that you’re experiencing burnout. So those are just some of the causes of burnout that once we know those things, we can say, Okay, if this is what you’re experiencing at work, or if these are the boundary kind of issues, we start to dive deeper into making a plan around addressing that.

KENDRA: Now, that’s so interesting, because, again, I know from my particular experience, though, as you mentioned, the external factors, you know, for the environment that I was in, that was such a big one. And, you know, going back to identifying and asking those reflective questions, I wish I would have had this tool, you know, back in my early 20s, when I experienced my job burnout because I know that it would have saved me a lot of exhaustion, and, you know, unnecessary stress that, oh, I shouldn’t say unnecessary stress, but just stress that could have been avoided and, and handled and something that I could have really taken control of.

LAUREN: Yeah, I definitely feel like it’s one of those tools that we learn along the way. It’s almost like sometimes, we have to get to this point to then get curious about what is happening here, and what can I change? I’m curious about your experience with burnout. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience and what that looked like for you?

KENDRA: Yeah, so for me, as I mentioned, I was in my early 20s, and I just started working in a new industry as a marketing and communications coordinator. So I was working in the financial industry. So and when I started, my manager at the time, advises me that she was actually leaving the organization three weeks later. So, unfortunately, during that time, it didn’t give us significantly, I guess, time to actually run through the onboarding process and proper handover. So because she actually also went on a holiday to Bali during that three-week period, too. So it was I was in a situation where after she left, I was offered the acting manager position. And so I found myself then diving into just absolute work mode in the sense that everything else in my personal life just went on the back burner. And I was working 40, excuse me, 80 plus hours a week, just to prove myself within the company and really secure this management position. And what also didn’t help is the culture within the company really fostered this worth ethic of just working a lot and working really hard. And so as you mentioned, with those external factors, that was absolutely something that played into effect for me. So with time, I noticed I was getting home at 910, sometimes at 11 o’clock at night, and I was answering work emails at 3 pm in the morning. And I found I was also attending quite a few work events during the week and on the weekends and traveling for conferences. And although I enjoyed it, it was also becoming just I was I was becoming exhausted my boundaries, as we talked about were becoming nonexistent, and I was seldom exercising or spending time with my friends. And I also noticed that I lost a lot of weight from the stress, and just the lack of taking care of myself through diet and, you know, just physical activity.

LAUREN: Those are some really big indicators when you’re in a workplace environment, where you have that you don’t have the ability to really say no to taking on more work and that there’s such a huge workload and the job, like the expectations, are maybe unclear as far as what is in your scope of work, what’s expected of you. And then is it possible to do this amount of work and this amount of time. And I’d be curious even to know about the workplace dynamics like were there good management project management systems in place by the person who left the job and the whose role you are having to kind of take on and that sort of thing. So like that makes that definitely makes sense that you would be in this state of Emma’s constant chaos and when you are in that state of having to be on all the time. So this can happen when a job is either too monotonous or like too much of the same repetitive thing and it’s not challenging or when it’s too chaotic, and you need constant energy to remain focused and that can really lead to fatigue, and then job burnouts and that I’m hearing that that makes sense.

KENDRA: And you’re right it’s interesting because the company was going through quite a significant change at that time. So, we actually had a new CEO that was brought on board. And there was, oh, gosh, it was like a 60%. I mean, it was around about 60% turnover rate of staff at that stage too. So just big changes within the company, and then also within the industry. So that was also during the faux fur reforms. So the future of financial advice, and there were significant changes within the industry. So that had a ripple effect on the company, as well. So, but yeah, it’s interesting, I just, I found that I mean, this went on for a year and a half, two years, and I just noticed that I was at a debilitating, debilitating state of exhaustion and the other aspects of my life were completely suffering. And I believe it took me hitting rock bottom, to then reevaluate my life and how I was living it. And, you know, and thankfully for your support, Lauren, I know you were there. I mean, I remember calling you on the phone and discussing this. And even during that later, in stage, actually, right before I left the company, we were living together at that stage, too. So you were such a supportive piece, for me in terms of just even being able to talk about my concerns and decompressing with you as well. So it helps me to then make that decision of, you know, I know that I needed to set boundaries. And I also then at that stage had started following my passion for pilates and I was teaching classes outside of the workweek just to give myself you know, just something else to do and think about. And I enjoyed it that much. And it brought me so much joy. So, with time, I found that it was, it was a lot of things that were aligning for me to make that big change. And I decided to leave that company and also pursue my passion for teaching pilates full time.

LAUREN: How intuitive of you to do that, to know that one, what your body wanted was to move and to, you know, to move into Pilates, but literally for movement and mindfulness, which is a big part of like a Pilates, that mind-body connection. And that’s what you were able to pursue while you were working in the corporate world, but then to be able to make a career out of it now.

KENDRA: I just remember making that leap was so scary at the time for me. And again, I remember you and I were living together. And you were such a huge support system for me. Because I was petrified I just didn’t, I knew that I had to leave the situation that I was in because I knew that it required that amount of change for me to reprioritize my health and just help create a lifestyle that I really wanted. So yeah, I remember once I made that leap, though, and I was on the other side of it, I just a big sigh of relief. And so many aspects of my life changed and I was so much happier. So but again, I reflect back and I wish that I would have had, you know, I wish I would have asked those self-reflective questions and really edit at a much sooner stage because it would have saved me a lot of unnecessary stress. And I would have hopefully been in a much better place sooner than that timeframe that it took. So. So yeah, that was my experience with it. And it was a profound time in my life and something that shaped where I’m at now. And something I’m also you know, similar to you very passionate about, because I do see and hear a lot of people who are going through these experiences and it is really common. So But Lauren, I know you also experienced burnout throughout your career. So did you want to maybe explain a little bit about your journey with it? And how it affected you.

LAUREN: Sure. So it is my battle with burnout years ago. That is what makes me passionate about helping people identify where they’re at in this light stress burnout cycle because especially if we catch that early, then there won’t there doesn’t have to be these like long-term effects. But if you are in burnout, there are things that we can do to support you to recover from burnout. And I think that is what it took me a long time to kind of do this research on my own to find out how I recover, cognitively from the impact of burnout. So there are a lot of studies I’ll just start by saying there are a lot of studies on this On, showing that chronic stress affects, your memory and your ability to focus and concentrate. And another study showed that if you had burnout, you had lower levels of a neurotransmitter that’s needed to grow new brain cells. So learning and being agile in your thinking is really difficult when you’re experiencing stress and burnout, and especially regulating your emotions because your emotional centers of the brain are kind of blown whenever you’re in that state. And that’s, that was really what I noticed, for me it was, and I still will notice that when I get into a place of maybe I’m moving into more burnout, the smallest things can make me really, you know, really upset. So I’ve taught myself these different ways to regulate my emotions whenever those things come up. So the good thing is things like mindful movement, meditation, and that type of connection and support from friends or family is what can help you start to retrain and reset your brain after experiencing burnout. And it’s also important to know that stress isn’t bad for you. It’s the ongoing chronic stress without supportive relationships, and without coping mechanisms and coping strategies, that’s bad for you. So that ongoing stress is what causes the brain to have those changes. And those memory loss is difficulty concentrating, and also impaired ability to focus and plan and emotionally regulate. So I just want to be clear about that. I’m not saying that we should all sit in meditation 24 hours a day, the idea is that we experience stress, and then we are able to do things to recover from stress, like exercise, spending time with friends, you know, laughing with friends, expressing your emotions, and to come back to a place of calm whenever you experience stress.

KENDRA: That’s so interesting. You say that, because as you mentioned, I know for me personally, that experiencing that chronic stress and having those coping mechanisms for me, everything just completely went to the wayside. And it’s interesting because I know how much when I am being physically active and even taking time to meditate or even eating healthy meals, you know, those were the things that I was not putting in place and didn’t have as a priority. So it’s yeah, I can absolutely relate to what you’re saying with that level of chronic stress and how that then impairs, as you mentioned, cognitively, my memory and my concentration levels are just nonexistent.

LAUREN: Exactly. And it’s interesting, I think a lot of advice around burnout is if you’re experiencing burnout to do less, and I actually say it’s to do more of what you enjoy doing. So more of the movement that you enjoy, and more of the outdoor activities that you enjoy whatever it is that lights you up cooking, gardening, knitting, surfing, whatever, do more of that. Now, if you are in a place of habitual burnout, and you’re there there are points where you actually just need to go and like sitting on a beach for two months. And not everybody can do that. But there are that’s at that end stage. And that’s the stage that I was in. So I was in stage five of burnout, yes, about my experience, and I’ll share a bit about that is when you really have to not only start doing things that you enjoy, and really that’s all that you can do because that will help motivate you to do more. Once you’ve kind of scaled down your to-do list to those absolutely necessary items. Then yeah, it’s about doing more of what you love. So for me with a habitual burnout, I was experiencing extreme exhaustion and wasn’t really able to function as a human. And I was writing family health programs for large national health organizations and for nationally based organizations on managing your thoughts and feelings and handling stress and the importance of self-care. But I realized like all of that stuff, just as you said, kind of went out the window for me. And I wasn’t really practicing those routinely whenever I was experiencing peak stress. So I felt like everyone was kind of applauding my work when I was submitting these different toolkits and these different manuals, and I felt dead inside. I really was sick and tired and sick and tired of being sick and tired. So for me, I had a manager that asked me a really profound question. He said, What part of my job I’m most passionate about what tasks did I do during the day that I enjoyed the most and I really couldn’t answer that because I was in the workday there. At that point where I was out with burnout there, I was no longer passionate about my work. And I will say, I got into this into parenting and family support research and supporting children who experienced child abuse and neglect because I was insanely passionate about supporting children to not experience similar things that I experienced as a child. And that passion was just gone. So it was great that he asked this question because it helped me identify that I actually wasn’t enjoying any of the tasks that I was working on. My favorite part of my day was my walk home from work, I lived in the city. So I would walk home from work, and at night, usually quite late at night. And that actually had led me on a journey to looking at my values and what I valued and what brought me joy. And a lot, of this, is just asking that simple question about what part of your day do you enjoy? And I now actually look at this at the end of each day and say, what was my win of the day? What were my challenges? And what are my lessons learned? But most importantly, what did I actually do when was I in flow state, like, what were the things I was doing, that I was really in it and enjoying it, and it wasn’t like a forced kind of flow state. And so that’s, that’s one really good way to kind of get started on that journey to finding your way out of burnout. And I also learned through all that, that I have to know myself and I have to do the self-reflection introspection, in order to not self-abandon and to not allow everybody else’s needs to overpower mine, I learned that I have to know myself to not self abandon, and I have you get the foundational habits, right. And then I can start to build the life that I want from there. I think that sometimes we forget how important the daily foundational habits are for our mental health whenever we are so stressed out. And you mentioned this kinder to those daily foundational habits of exercise, getting an appropriate amount of exposure to sunlight, direct sunlight, meditation, or mindfulness practices are the things and connection human connection, being in touch with your family, friends, whoever it is, in your community that you connect with, are imperative to have. And once you get those foundational habits, right, you can build from there, but it’s just like a house, if you don’t have the foundational habits and the foundations sturdy, then whenever a storm comes through, the house will blow down. And that’s basically what happened to me I didn’t have I knew those foundational habits were important, I meditated. Occasionally, I exercise occasionally. But as soon as something big would come up at work, I would let all that go. And I now know that no, those are the that is how I’m going to survive, you know, running a business or really difficult project that I’m working on. So those things kind of have to be in place. I also developed different mindset habits and self-care routines around being intentional and reflective. So to make sure I’m asking myself questions like What am I avoiding? What conversation Do I need to have? What is taking up a lot of my time that I couldn’t delegate or delete? Or do later what actually has to happen right now. So I really, I think the value of reflecting and journaling cannot be overstated. It’s important for people who’ve experienced trauma, it’s important for people who just to be a, a positive kind of human functioning in society because it allows you to kind of dig deeper into your inner working model to be able to excavate what is going on for yourself.

KENDRA: So I just want to interject Lauren, and say that your tool of reflecting at the end of the day, I find that I’ve also started doing that I was influenced by you with that. I guess that routine and I find it so incredibly helpful. So even if I’ve had a really crappy day, and just simply reading writing down, you know, I actually went outside and went for a walk for 10 minutes and that brought me joy. Just even writing that down, lightens my mood and makes me think okay, you know what, it was a good day. And I’m going to ensure that I add more of those elements moving forward so that when you know crappy things happen throughout the day I have more of these non-negotiables that bring me joy, so it helps to set those elements in place that invite more extra to inviting more of those elements into your day of what bring you joy so that all these outside forces that sometimes you can’t control, you still have that strong foundation. So I think that’s a great tool.

LAUREN: That is a huge question. Yeah. To, to ponder. And then reflect on what part of your day brings you joy? Or what? What activities can you add in that can bring just a little, little piece, of joy throughout your day? And you know, for everyone, yeah, that can look different? What came out for you? Is that what we’re both what is it that brings you joy in your day.

KENDRA: Really, it was the simplest of things just going outside in the morning, either if it’s going for a run or a walk along the beach, and also just having a coffee in the morning. And I know that sounds so simple, but I enjoy, that ritual so much. And when I have my coffee, I also find that I slow down and I’m reflective. And I also just simply write in my, in my diary or my calendar, also is that reflective time. So I enjoy those small simple aspects of my day. And I find that it also sets me up for the day, as well. So I’m finding that those morning elements make a big difference as well.

LAUREN: For sure. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think for me, it’s going for a quick walk during the day and taking walk breaks, even just like five-minute walking breaks, or going to the gym in the morning, and getting some piece of exercise and those types of things really bring me joy, and then just connecting with like friends throughout the day.

KENDRA: So Lauren, my question to you is, how do you recommend moving from that stage of burnout and habitual burnout into feeling good again?

LAUREN: So this really depends on what phase of burnout you’re in. But overall, if you’ve been feeling chronic stress, or feeling exhausted, emotionally depleted, and disconnected from your work, whether that be at home, or in the office, these are the steps that will kind of help you get reflective and intentional and start to feel better. So the first one is to get reflective, like we were just saying is having a regular practice of asking yourself questions and writing out your response in a journal. And this can probably sound really tedious to somebody who doesn’t have a journaling practice I can imagine before I started journaling, that this would have been just another thing to add to to-do lists. But really, it’s whenever you feel that like ting of like, oh god, I’ve got too much going on. I can’t do this, I’m overwhelmed. Ask to write out like, what am I overwhelmed about? What conversation Do I need to have? What can I delegate? What am I avoiding? Asking yourself those simple questions is really going to help you get to the bottom of Okay, where can I go from here, and what’s the plan, basically. And then the other piece is adding these science-supported self-care habits into your day so that you can start to feel a boost in your mood, and your energy. And really the key here is getting your sleep and wake cycles synced to what you’re doing. So even if you are working Kendra is really good about mentioning is even if you are working night shift, still getting your sleep and wake cycles to seem so that you’re getting eight hours of sleep, that you’re getting exposure to the sun, either at sunset or sunrise is really going to help with that because that helps improve your quality of sleep. So while you’re sleeping, you will be able to experience all the rejuvenating aspects of the sleep cycle. And then also, the things around exercise and meditation or a mindful breath breathing practice are really important. And then, of course, it’s picking one thing that brings you joy each day that you can do whether or not it’s getting going for a walking meeting and walking while you’re speaking so that you’re getting outside and you’re getting moving or is listening to your favorite podcast or reading a book I know and I was burnout I couldn’t really read I just was not something that I was able to do. So I got really into podcasts and audiobooks. Even just listening to music while you’re working can be another way to kind of just brings some joy into your life. The other third thing here is connection and support. So I know Kyndra mentioned that we were living together whenever she was six preferencing, the burnout in the corporate world. And that connection and that support are fundamental. I mean, when I’m moved to a new city, the first thing I do is make sure that I am connecting with friends and people who have similar interests so that I can build my support system because that is really going to be what holds you together. And it’s so important to have, even if you’re just moving to a place and Kendra and I can both relate to moving to a new place, even if you’re just connecting with your barista, or the grocery checkout person, making sure you’re getting connection time and with people face to face each day is, is in Paramount. And also then we talked about like reducing your workload and focusing on the tasks that are imperative. So I know I said, you know, the one thing that we hear is that you should reduce your workload. And I think that you actually need to add in stuff, which is added, enjoy. But you should also be looking at your list of things and prioritizing one thing each week, and then you will have tasks to do under that priority. But that’s going to help you move the needle forward. And it’s also going to help you get really realistic about what needs to be delegated, what can wait, or what doesn’t actually have to happen.

KENDRA: That’s interesting. When I reflect back on my experience with burnout, that workload I mean, I just remember, there was such a significant amount of work that was coming through and on my desk, and I just didn’t have the confidence to say, no, or I, you know, I don’t have time for this, or I need help. I guess that’s right, there is a big statement that I really struggled with at that point in time. And I don’t know if it was because I was new in the company. And I was quiet, I was younger at that stage as well. But I just know that simple elements of saying I really need help here, because I’m drowning, was huge. 

LAUREN: That’s such a big, I think it’s an important thing to mention because that’s a big thing that comes up for a lot of people who are first like learning to set boundaries and learning to say no. And that is something that we actually cover in my the course like the actual sentences that you use to be able to ask for help. And its state when you have a boundary. And it’s interesting, like boundaries, because we often think, okay, I said the thing, as I told them, I can’t do this, or I can’t take on more work. But it’s usually a process of having to restate your boundary numerous, numerous times to get the message across that you actually are not able to take on extra work. Because generally, if it’s a workplace where they’re used to being able to load on tasks to people, it’s gonna take them a while to get used to and realize like, what is actually realistic, within a timeframe. So that makes so much sense. So that’s something that you’re struggling with. And it’s something that so many people do struggle with the boundaries and the words like how do we communicate this across to somebody who is in a higher power position. And that can be that another piece of this, which is the fifth step is managing thoughts so that they don’t manage you, which is a really important piece of this, we cover the foundational parts and the foundational habits first and get those ready because, without those foundational habits of being able to emotionally regulate, it’s going to be really difficult. So for this, it’s really about the communication of your feelings, but it’s also about reflecting on what is it that triggers your big emotions and like the big anxiety or stress or anger when it comes to work, and then we go from there to finding different solutions and ways to reframe our thoughts so that they can then be used to basically achieve what you want to achieve. So it’s really looking at your stress mindset and thinking, How is this actually how are this stress and this feeling kind of holding me back from achieving or how’s it impacting basically, what I would like to achieve? And then we kind of work on that as well. So we do emotional regulation techniques, and we do some self-talk and stress mindset techniques.

KENDRA: Well, I’m interested so I’m sure many of the listeners have either experienced the different stages of burnout or perhaps are currently in one of those stages of burnout. So, I know you, you talk about your program flow. And I’m just interested, what would you recommend to these individuals who are interested in your program? What are your suggestions in terms of what are the next steps for them?

LAUREN: I would first just on your own, think about which habits and skills you want to add to your toolkit to help you get those foundation habits, right, write them down right now, like you could pause the podcast, write those down because that is going to help you start to know which steps to just go ahead and start taking that. The next thing also, and this is part of the flow of the program is the online program is available now, for anybody to sign up and go through this full course where you fully learn about stress management techniques, emotion regulation, techniques, and burnout recovery, which you’ll have forever. So you’ll have access to this, these tools forever. And that will be released on July 1. So get out there, and you can find that on my website, drlaurenhodge.com, and we’ll put it in the show notes.

KENDRA: And I just also want to say that I was part of Lauren’s I was one of her testers for her program, her online program. And I will say that she has put an immense amount of time and energy and heart and soul into this program. And it just provides so many wonderful tools and strategies and just ways to get yourself into a state of flow and create these habits that are really significantly going to impact your life. And I highly recommend that you guys go and check out her programs. So it’s yeah, it’s awesome Lauren. So well that concludes the episode for today. If you guys have any questions or you know stories on your own, we’d love to hear from you. So please feel free to reach out to either Dr. Lauren Hodge on her Instagram or on my Instagram as well which is Kendra Till Pilates, and we’d love to hear from you guys. So thanks for tuning in and we look forward to seeing you guys next time.

LAUREN: Have a good day.