In Shake It Off Episode 10 Dr. Lauren Hodge speaks with special guest Michael Slepian.

Michael is a behavioral scientist and the author of The Secret Life of Secrets. He is also the leading expert on the psychology of secrets and associate professor of Leadership and Ethics at Columbia University.

During this episode, Lauren and Michael talk about secrets. They cover why we keep secrets, science-based strategies to cope with the secrets we keep, and the impact of secrets on our well-being.

(Kendra was away at an incredible and comprehensive Pilates conference while we recorded this episode -she’ll be back for episode 11!)

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Links to resources mentioned:

• The Secret Life of Secrets: How Our Inner Worlds Shape Well-Being, Relationships, and Who We Are.

Read The Transcript

Lauren Hodge

Today we are chatting with behavioral scientist Michael Slepian, the author of The Secret Life Of Secrets. He is the leading expert on the psychology of secrets and an associate professor of leadership and ethics at Columbia University. And his book covers science stories and practical strategies to cope with the secrets we keep. When reading your book, Michael, I learned that on average, we’re keeping as many as 13 secrets at any given time, and some of the most common secrets that we keep include things like addiction, mental health challenges, hidden relationships, and financial struggles. And your research involves more than 50,000 participants from across the world, which is an incredible amount of people to survey and collect data on. So I can imagine that this is over a number of years of work, where you’re collecting all of this data.

 

Your book really opened up a lot of interesting conversations and reflective conversations between me and some of my friends as well. So questions like, would you want to know if your partner cheated? If it were definitely never going to happen again, and if it was a one-off incident. Those are the types of things that I was really reflecting on because I had not actually asked myself those questions. But before we get into all of that, I would love to hear from you more about what are secrets. If you were to give a definition of secrets, how would you describe that?

 

Michael Slepian

The definition turns out to be important because prior work before my research, turns out to be a very narrow definition, and it’s the reason we haven’t known about secrets for so long. The way people used to think about secrecy, and the way researchers use to define secrecy as an action, that is you are in conversation with someone, and something about that conversation leads you to have to actively conceal the secret in that social interaction. So that’s what prior studies would do, they would put two people into a room and have one person conceal from the other while the other person was asking questions related to the secret. But it turns out, that’s a very specific situation, and it’s not even a common one.

 

For most of our secrets, it’s very rare that we have to conceal them, but we can think about them all the time. So I define secrecy as the intention to withhold information from one or more people. And so as soon as you intend to keep something secret, that’s when you have a secret, and that secret can affect you and will affect you, even before you ever have the chance to hide it in conversation.

 

Lauren Hodge

That’s so interesting, I hadn’t thought about that, that most often we are not asked about our secret. So it’s not that you’re being forced to keep it a secret. It’s that you’re holding it in and that you know that information. Okay, so as a behavioral scientist, and as somebody whose most of my work has been done in parenting and family support, I’m interested to know, at what age do children develop that cognitive ability or capacity for secrecy?

 

Michael Slepian

So it emerges gradually and over the years, and so even really young children as young as two or three might try to keep a secret, although not very effectively. One parent told me about her child who said he didn’t eat a cookie, except he had cookie crumbs all over his lips. And then another parent told me that her three-year-old daughter said she hadn’t gotten into her mother’s makeup, yet she had lipstick smeared all over her face. And so in those early years, kids will try to keep a secret by simply denying it. But more complex forms of secrecy take some more time in order to more competently keep a secret and recognize that something in my head is not necessarily in your head, you need to have a really good understanding of how people’s minds work and how they’re only aware of things that they were a witness to.

 

So around comes the age of four or five or so children start having a good sense of when people can hold a belief that is wrong, that is they have this sort of false belief about some state of the world, and to understand that requires some skills that don’t come around until four or five when children really have an understanding of the sort of what’s in their heads and what’s in other people’s heads and how those things can differ. And then when kids get a little bit older, around six and older, and then they start having sort of more believable stories around their secrets, for example, blaming a broken vase on a cat rather than a ghost.

 

Lauren Hodge

As far as why children keep secrets, is that also different from adults? Just think that you’re saying with adults, it’s intentionally holding something back or holding back a piece of information. But is it the same for children?

 

Michael Slepian

There’s one kind of secrecy that cuts throughout the lifespan, whether you’re a kid or an adult and that’s going to avoid punishment. That’s definitely a common reason kids will keep secrets, they’ve made some kind of an accidental mess, spilled something, or broken something, and they don’t want to get in trouble for it, because who would? And sometimes they might try to keep that a secret.

 

As adults, we do that too, of course. But there is something that’s unique about kids and their secrets, and it’s something that I think adults too often forget about, which is if you ask a young child, what is the secret, they might say it’s something you would only tell your best friend, if you ask a child, what makes someone your best friend, they might say, well, you can tell them your secrets without them making fun of you. So they really associate secrets with a sense of intimacy, it’s something you only share with special people. That’s a lot more obvious to see in children. As adults, we forget about that. We forget that you can make yourself vulnerable and reveal something to someone, and it’s a way to deepen a relationship. We normally think of these secrets as things that sort of hurt our relationships, but they don’t have to.

 

Lauren Hodge

So it definitely sounds like children, they’re looking at secrets as a way of not getting punished, and so do adults, but just in a different form. I think that is so interesting to think about. I can think of secrets from when I was a child and the reason for holding things back, but it is kind of related at the same time as an adult. If we’re thinking about the common secrets that come up, the reason that you might withhold information about like a mental health challenge, or a financial struggle, depending on who the person is that you’re holding that information from, it might be that you don’t want to lose a job, or you don’t want to lose your partner or whatever the things that you think could come from that.

 

So what is an example of a secret that might negatively impact your mental health? I understand from reading your book, there are different types of weights of a secret that we hold can kind of be different depending on maybe the type of secret. What would be an example of one that might negatively impact your mental health?

 

Michael Slepian

So this serves as a good way to bridge what we were just talking about enhancing your question, which is that there is this shift that happens in adolescence, where we start coming to the kind of secrets now that hurt our health and our well-being. What the shift becomes is essentially concerned with social approval, which really comes in a big way for teenagers, right? So that’s when they might be so concerned about social approval, that they’ll not discuss something with a trusted friend, not discuss some worry they have or some struggle they have or something they feel ashamed with.

 

Our fear of how others respond to [our secrets] clips our ability to place trust in them. That’s when secrets start hurting us. So when it’s the secret you feel ashamed with, that’s a secret that’s gonna hurt to keep if it’s a secret you feel isolated with, that’s also going to be a secret that hurts. If you just feel really uncertain, and you’re not sure what to do with it, that kind of secret also will hurt your health and well-being.

 

Lauren Hodge

So the secrets that we’re not feeling like it would be socially acceptable to share with other people, or the ones that we’re holding alone and that we can’t share with somebody else. Is that right?

 

Michael Slepian

We have this idea that there are some secrets we can’t share because people are gonna respond so poorly or we’re gonna be too embarrassed. But it turns out that most experiences of confiding a secret in another person go pretty well. Our worst fear, it’s very rare that they ever materialize. People respond more positively than we expect they would.

 

Lauren Hodge

So then there is the part about kind of carrying the secret alone and not telling others. The reason that’s probably kind of harmful to us is that it can be isolating, and then if you’re really holding it in, then you could start ruminating on that.

 

Michael Slepian

Exactly. So even when this is a secret that you don’t have to frequently hide in conversation, you have all the time in the world to think about the secret in your own thoughts, and if you’re choosing to be alone with something that’s really significant or important, or something that’s bothering you, it’s really likely you’re going to find an unhealthy way of thinking about it if you’re doing it entirely alone. But simply discussing it with another person can make the world of difference there.

 

Lauren Hodge

So is that the key to the kind of coping with the secrets that are waiting on us, is to have a conversation with somebody?

 

Michael Slepian

Yes, we see that when people confide in someone that they trust, they typically receive emotional support and some sort of practical support, and the reason why revealing a secret so often benefits us is not that it reduces the need to hide the secret at later time points.

 

For example, if I reveal the secret to you, but still keep it from other people, it’s not going to change how much I hide it from other people. But it does change how I think about it, just a simple conversation with someone else will change how I think about the secret and for the better, because the other person has a unique set of experiences and perspectives that they can share with you that you can’t find on your own, they can give you emotional support. Also, something that you really can’t find on your own. There’s so much to offer in helping you find a way forward just from talking with someone else.

 

Lauren Hodge

That’s so important. A couple of things come to mind for me here, and I probably don’t do a whole lot of revealing of my own personal stories on the podcast. But one truth for me is that I had a major secret when I was a child, and it actually probably became a secret. Whenever I was 18, I signed a gag order that I wouldn’t speak about certain child abuse that I experienced from the age of 10 to 17, and it was actually interesting, because at that point, I went to therapists for a couple of visits, and so I had someone to speak to for a couple of sessions about that. But it was actually the holding it in over probably more of like this eight-year period afterward, where I noticed rumination starting. I would think that in my 20s, conversations about certain topics would come up, especially when me too movement happened, and I was feeling very much connected to that through my childhood experience that I wouldn’t like to hold it in anymore.

 

It’s actually interesting that the big thing is sharing it with other people because as soon as I started to open up about it, and stopped worrying so much about the Gag order and not being able to speak about it was when I was able to find the appropriate therapy that then eventually helped me to heal and treat PTSD, which is a lot of rumination. I think that this is so incredible in that when we’re thinking about children or young adults as far as the secrets that they’re keeping, having that safe person for them to speak to. I think it was really pivotal for me whenever I started to be able to slowly talk about my experiences.

 

Michael Slepian

Hearing your story reminds me of a woman who wrote about keeping her husband’s depression secret. He was depressed, and she really didn’t want anyone to know about this, so he asked her not to and if she of course respected his wishes for years and years until it became too hard. It just became so difficult to have this huge thing going on in your life that you’re not discussing with the people around you. So she started telling people even though she wasn’t supposed to, and it just made everything better. She realized wow, this is actually not an uncommon experience. Other people struggle with this too, other people struggle with having a partner who’s struggling with mental health and they’re just all around these people who could help her and she had no idea.

 

Lauren Hodge

It normalizes your experience when you’re able to reveal those things all the other people might not have the same exact experience of it, they can at least relate to where you’re at and what you’re going through. There are support groups and that sort of thing that is also really useful for that. So then I have another question that kind of leads on from this because I also think about how humans are wired for connection, and that holding in parts of our inner world can often be lonely and isolating, and isolation can often lead to depression and burnout. So I’m curious, do you think that we can have secrets and still connect and be known or how can we still hold secrets, and still connect and be known by other people?

 

Michael Slepian

The distinction that comes in handy between confession and confiding, when I say confession, and revealing a secret to the person or people you’re specifically keeping it from another option, and there are all kinds of risks involved in that. And it really depends on what we’re talking about, what the issue is and who the person is, your relationship with them, and so on. But one thing you can do before you even consider confessing, or maybe the right thing to do is to not confess.

 

This doesn’t mean you have to suffer entirely alone, because there are all the other people out there, who you can talk to about the secret, you can reveal a secret to a third party while still keeping it from the person or people you’re keeping it from. That’s what turns out to be so beneficial when it’s a third party, when there are not going to be immediate consequences to what would happen if you confessed it to the person, that person gives you help. While if you still need to maintain the secret, you can still do so. But now you have a healthier relationship with a secret once you talk about it with other people and sort of find ways forward with it.

 

Lauren Hodge

Okay, so that is really a third party that could be a therapist or coach, or just anyone that’s kind of removed from that immediate situation.

 

Michael Slepian

Exactly, and so a therapist is one option, but another option is a friend that you trust. People like to confide in people who they see as compassionate. So someone who will be nonjudgmental, and empathic and sort of be there for you and be able to provide emotional support. People also like to confide in people who are assertive, people who will push you to do the thing that you need to do, other things you should consider when trying to decide who to confide in are essential, does this person have a similar set of morals as you?

 

If revealing your secret is good to totally scandalize this person if they’re going to find it totally morally objectionable. Don’t talk about it with them, we find in our research that when someone believes what you’ve just confided in them is morally wrong, they’re more likely to talk to someone about it essentially, as a form of punishment. So you want to be mindful about who you choose. Then the final thing to think about is, does revealing this secret to this person, now all of a sudden implicate them in the problem now? Do they have to carry the secret for you too? Something to keep in mind.

 

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, that’s so interesting. I think about that, not to make this about me and my situation from the past. But I think about that with this GAG order that I signed and I’m not allowed to talk to anybody about it. However, I have a therapist that I talked to and I kind of made a decision at some point within my early 30s, when I was going through a really tough time, that my mental health mattered more than this GAG order, which was saying that I couldn’t reveal information, but I do think that having that third party is what allowed me to talk the most about that incident.

 

So I definitely think that that makes a lot of sense to me. I just really appreciate your kind of consolidating this all into one book and providing this information. I have one other question for you. If there was one thing that you wanted people to know about the book or about your research on secrets, and they were to take one big point away, what would that piece of information be?

 

Michael Slepian

It would be that if there’s a secret that you’re struggling with or that’s making you feel isolated or ashamed or just anything that’s bothering you, you don’t have to do it alone. If you’re not sure what to do with this information if you’re not sure if you should confess or come forward you don’t have to figure that out on your own either. You can talk to someone else and most people, especially the people that you carefully select, those people are going to be able to help.

 

Lauren Hodge

Thank you. So we have one Rapid Fire question that we asked at the end of each episode. And because of that, this podcast is really about mental health and physical health strategies. I can imagine that writing this book, and pulling together your research from so many years would have been really stressful. And I’m curious, what is your go-to strategy for maintaining your mental health or your physical health? Whenever you’re experiencing a lot of stress or a lot of transitions and changes in life?

 

Michael Slepian

I have two things to answer, one is having a supportive partner is so amazing when there’s this big challenge that you’re you’re struggling with and finding your way through just having someone who’s there for you and understands you’re going through it and sort of can help with some small things when you’re too stressed, makes such a difference. Also, I love you going out for a run, and I found that was always a useful way to sort of clear my mind if I needed to do that or try to solve some problem that it was stuck on to try to figure that out while thinking about it while running.

 

Lauren Hodge

That’s great, and I will say that that is our connection. My connection with Michael is that I did my doctoral research and my Ph.D. at the same university as Rachel, and that’s how I know Michael. I actually went to their wedding in Brisbane, Australia. So yes, I can imagine she’s an incredible support to have gone through this process of launching the book even and everything else. So where can our listeners find your book?

 

Michael Slepian

You can find The Secret Life Of Secrets wherever you buy books. If you want more information about the research, you can go to michaelslepian.com, or you can look up the book.

Welcome back to episode 8 of Shake It Off with Dr. Lauren Hodge and Kendra Till. In this episode, we provide you with tips and steps to help you regulate your emotions.

When you have strong emotions like feeling overwhelmed, stressed, depressed or angry; being able to regulate your emotions is a tool that can help you pause so that you can communicate effectively in those moments. It’s a skill that helps you optimize relationships.

Emotional regulation isn’t something that happens overnight, it takes time and practice. We discuss our experiences with emotional regulation for personal growth.

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Access the Guide with Tips and Steps to Regulate Your Emotions

 

 

Read The Transcript

Kendra Till

Welcome to Shake It Off, a podcast that gives you the tools, strategies, and stories to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.

 

Hi, everyone, welcome back to Shake It Off. In today’s episode, we’re gonna talk about emotional regulation. For me, I know when I have strong emotions, for example, feeling overwhelmed or stressed or alone, being able to regulate my emotions is a tool that can help me to communicate in those moments. Being able to emotionally regulate is a skill that can help you optimize your relationships. In this episode, we’re going to provide you with the tips and steps to help you regulate emotions in yourself.

 

Lauren Hodge

We like to first start out our episodes describing the thing that we’re talking about, and emotion regulation is coping with stress and overwhelm and conflict in ways that have safe and clear communication.

 

I know when I think back to when I was going through my doctorate program, and I was getting advice from people on how you succeed, and a lot of people would say the most successful people are the people who persevere, keep pushing, work harder than others. But really what I learned was success and fulfillment comes from having an ability to regulate your emotions. So this is really important for everyone, those who want to be successful, or who are managers or employees, parents, anyone in a relationship of any form. So what I’ve learned is that the biggest factor in experiencing success and ultimately fulfillment in life is the ability to regulate your emotions.

 

Kendra Till

So essentially, would you say that suppressing your emotions is not a good thing?

 

Lauren Hodge

Well, with emotion regulation, a lot of people wonder “if I’m in regulating my emotions, is that like pushing things down? Is that suppressing them?” And I would say that emotion regulation is kind of the opposite of that. It’s allowing yourself to acknowledge what you’re feeling, and take a moment to pause so that big emotions can pass. Then, you can process it and communicate in a way that allows you to say how you’re feeling.

 

Kendra Till

Would you say emotional regulation is something that we learned from our parents and our upbringing?

 

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, exactly. It’s interesting because we learn emotion regulation as children, and we learn that from whoever our primary caregiver is because they model that. This can be things like the ability to confidently deal with stressful emotions or situations with grace and calmness, clarity and empathy. Many adults don’t have this skill, which is why adults commonly tantrum. They can do things like throwing things, screaming, name calling, sulking, silent treatment, ghosting, shaming. All of these are versions of being emotionally dysregulated. It’s common for both children and adults who are overwhelmed to show these types of tantrums and these behaviors. If you think about it, they don’t end in childhood for many people, myself included.

 

I’ll never forget this time, it was my first time skiing in Aspen on the top of a green run, and it was my first day out there. I did not take lessons. I made the mistake that a lot of us do, which is I thought “oh my boyfriend can teach me.” It’s kind of like with surfing or anything, it’s probably the last thing that you should be doing if you’re somebody’s partner, unless you’re trained to teach someone to ski. Let them get their own ski lessons because you’re gonna see all these awful sides of them come out when they’re in that vulnerable position. So I’m on the top of this mountain snowstorm comes through, and my boyfriend’s there skiing backwards, he’s got the camera out, he’s videoing everyone. For the millionth time my skis came out from underneath me and I just went flying down the mountain, and I couldn’t take any more. I had a straight up tantrum on the top of that mountain like a child, and I was like, “Okay, we’re gonna have to get Snow Patrol up here, I’m not going down, this is not happening.” What I was trying to communicate was, I’m tired, I’m frustrated, I actually don’t know what I’m doing, and that came out in this angry outbursts and this tantrum, which we eventually worked through, but it happens.

 

Kendra Till

So what you’re saying is, essentially emotional regulation is being able to cope with stressful overwhelming situations or conflict, and have these safe and clear communication strategies. But in terms of emotional dysregulation, what are some other examples? Would addiction be an example? Or eating disorders are those types of dysregulation examples?

 

Lauren Hodge

Right. Those are things that you do to cope when you’re dysregulated, so that’s a really good question. A lot of times when you’re starting to feel dysregulated, and we think about this on a scale of, one to ten. One being you’re at your calmest, ten being you’re fully blown, you cannot calm yourself down, and you are fully disassociated from your experience. The things that you use to cope are the skills, and emotion regulation can help you identify what you need at those different stages. Say you’re at a five, so you’re able to still communicate in the moment, so take a pause, but you’re able to still stay in that moment and communicate how you’re feeling. At that time, maybe what you need is a couple of deep breaths, and a five minute break. But if you’re at your full dysregulated self, you might need to fully have a break from the conversation for a 24 hour period, maybe you need to bring in some distractors like TV, or fully leaving work and going for a walk, or meditation is one of the main things that’s always going to help you regulate. So meditation can be one of your coping skills.

 

Oftentimes, when we see things like eating disorders or addiction, it’s that coping mechanism that has been developed from a young age most likely to rely on this other thing to regulate, and to soothe yourself, instead of looking at these other kind of mechanisms, like meditation. Depending on where you’re at on that spectrum, you’ll know what you need. What I normally recommend is for someone to look at what triggers their anxiety, their stress, or overwhelm what they feel like, what that looks like for them and where they go (what coping mechanisms they use). Have a look at those coping mechanisms that you’re using, and see how you can replace them with more healthier strategies for emotionally regulating. Which would be things like meditation, because you’re learning to take a pause, and to take a break from the immediate thing that’s in front of you so that you can start to process.

 

Kendra Till

Would you say that exercise is a good method to use as well?

 

Lauren Hodge

Exercise is a great method, you go for a run, go to Pilates. That might be what you need at your highest level of dysregulation or maybe even just at a six or seven. That’s great to have all throughout whenever you’re feeling like you are stressed or angry, to get that out through movement.

 

Kendra Till

So essentially what you’re saying is, it would be helpful to have a journal that you can keep and write down what you’re experiencing, how you feel. I know for me personally, when I feel these really strong emotions, I feel it in my physical body as well. It’s useful to be able to identify that and to write it down and to use that scale to help you.

 

Lauren Hodge

It’s good to first understand where this is coming from. So whenever you’re thinking about that scale, also think “Where have I seen this before?” So oftentimes how your parents handled their problems or conflict is the way that you’re going to handle your own stressors and problems in life. It’s just giving you that awareness, then kind of going through this five step process. Which is

1. naming the situation, so you want to name the actual event that triggered your emotion without judgment, and you want to really just do it in one sentence or one small phrase. Maybe you’re starting to feel really dysregulated whenever you get an email from your boss, and you’re feeling really stressed with work, so the situation is ‘I got an email in my inbox from my boss.’ You’re not saying I got an email, and I was freaking out, because it was from my boss, and all that just named the actual situation, ‘I got an email in my inbox from my boss.’
2. Then you identify the emotion. I like to write this out in a graph, where you have the situation right next to it, and the next column is you identify the emotion, and that could be you’re ‘feeling anxious’, you’re feeling worried, you feel like you’re gonna lose your job, whatever that feeling is.

 

Kendra Till

Essentially, that first step is your naming what it is. It’s very fact based, you’re pulling out all the emotions from it. So you’re just stating exactly what it is. Then that second step is identifying that emotion, let it be overwhelm or stress, sadness. It’s actually giving that a label, so it gives it a bit of a personality. Which I can see how that would be helpful because in that essence of giving it that label, it helps you to understand that emotion.

 

Lauren Hodge

That’s right, and it helps you start to identify what it is that you’re feeling, and noticing what you’re feeling.

1. So you want to also name the thought that you had. So maybe the thought is “I’m going to get fired.” So you quickly just write down the first thought that comes to your mind from that situation, and
2. then [write down] your body sensation. So if you’re feeling anxious, where do you usually feel that when you feel anxious?

 

Kendra Till

For me, I feel it in my chest.

Lauren Hodge

So you would say I’m feeling heavy in my chest or my heart’s beating fast. So you then you write those three things down, because it gives you indicators to start to see the pattern that “when I feel anxious, I feel it in my chest, and this is the thought that I’m having.”

1. And then the last column is the action that you took. So maybe in that case, when you get the email from your boss, you’re feeling anxious, and you think I’m gonna lose my job, you ‘avoid responding to the email for hours,’ and that’s the action that happens, which can have some negative repercussions.

 

And in your mind, potentially, you want to change that to say, “Okay, I’m going to respond immediately, I’m not going to procrastinate on this.” And you would go back through that process, whenever you notice what you do, “Okay, this is the event, this is Monday morning, and I’m getting this email come through from like my boss.” And as soon as you notice that anxiety, you can remember your thought is, “Hey, I just got an email from my boss.”

 

Instead of thinking, “I’m probably getting fired”, which is kind of an extreme thought, in that situation, you can think “I got an email from my boss.” Then your new action that you’ve written down that you want to take, which is to respond immediately so that you’re not procrastinating. You remember, “okay, I’m just going to respond, we’re just going to do this, and we’re going to respond”, and it helps you kind of rework the actions that you’re taking. But the first step here, really for emotion regulation is just about identifying those emotions and your thoughts and body sensations and noticing them, and then pausing. So the biggest thing here is to just pause, and learn to pause before going into that automatic reaction.

 

This is a process. So that’s why writing it out helps because as you’re learning to pause, and take a break, it’s going to take a while. You have to really write this out. You have to get down to the thoughts that are happening in your mind that are causing this unwanted response for you, if it’s procrastination. Really just practice it consistently, and show yourself compassion as you’re practicing it because in order to move through that, that’s what’s required for that behavior change to happen. Now, this isn’t about, ruminating on your thoughts and your emotions for every situation, these are things that are really sticky situations for you where you want to not shut down or escalate. Oftentimes when we feel these stressors, we either shut down, we procrastinate, we isolate or we escalate, we get anxious, we get angry. So it’s those things where you can tell it’s impacting the relationship and you’re wanting to have a clear, safe communication around a certain situation. It’s about taking that pause.

 

Kendra Till

It’s almost like you’re creating a better response rather than being reactive. So I know for me, I can be if you know, if I’m not taking those steps, I have a tendency to be very impulsive, very reactive. If I’m angry, I’ll attack back, which is probably a bit of a survival instinct. But it’s that essence of like, “oh, you said something that made me really angry, I’m just going to attack back at you”, rather than pausing and being aware of that, “okay, I’m angry, and then I’m going to formulate a response.” Even that small moment of that pause, provides that ability to actually think about it and to reflect on it.

 

Lauren Hodge

Exactly. That also allows the time for the emotion to pass where you’re not being so reactive, instead you can still say, “Hey, I’m angry, I’m pissed”, you can say it but then you’re not like, “I’m angry, and you’re stupid.” It gives you a moment to not say the things that you might regret. But you definitely want to still communicate it, that feeling that you have. That’s such an important thing to think about because these things often come up in our relationships, and I know for me, whenever I’m feeling these throughout the day, or if I’m in a relationship where something is bothering me internally, and I can’t put my finger on it.

 

I write this out, I have a notebook where I have, like, the S is for the situation, the E is for the emotion, the T is for the thought, the B is for the body sensation, and the A is for the action. I just write out what’s happening, what was the action, and then how do I want to do this differently next time. Then it gives me the information that I need to also communicate how I’m feeling. I can say “Okay, I’m just feeling really anxious right now, or I’m really scared. And the reason I did this is because I thought that I might upset you, and that I might lose you. Or I thought that if I had told you how I was feeling that you might leave”, or whatever those feelings are that come up.

 

Kendra Till

It’s important to be able to use your words to communicate, and I can imagine that process of physically writing things down helps to formulate those words. I know for me, sometimes I have to write things down in order to help me formulate ideas and thoughts and be able to communicate them verbally. I can see where that’s a very useful practice.

 

Lauren Hodge

Yes, you’re right, and that is how I use it. There’s also the other thought of, we don’t have to say all the things or thoughts that go through our head. Some people process things verbally, where they first probably need to process it on their own before saying it out loud. Not everything needs to be communicated. So some of the things you could be like, “Oh, that’s where that was coming from. Okay”. Or it can also help you get down to the bottom of something that’s been bothering you.

 

Kendra Till

I could just see differentiating between communicating to assert your emotions and also communicating from a truly open place too. There would be a big difference between the two of those. I know for me when I’m in a conflict, I have a tendency to become really flooded with emotion, and I mentally check out and freeze. So how would I use these steps to help myself?

 

Lauren Hodge

So take me through what this looks like for you whenever you shut down and you’re stonewalling. What does it look like? And think about like the steps of emotion regulation when you’re explaining this to me, name the situation and identify the emotion and the thought and take me through it.

 

Kendra Till

A situation would be when Jessie and I discussed our future plans. There was a certain situation where we were in this discussion and I started feeling very anxious, and my thoughts were I’m unsure like, I felt so anxious, I was like, am I going to be supported?

 

Lauren Hodge

And what was your body sensation when you felt anxious?

 

Kendra Till

It’s almost like everything was stopping. My heart was stopping and everything was becoming very constricted in my chest.

 

Lauren Hodge

So what was the action that you took?

 

Kendra Till

I reacted I will say, and called him a complete asshole. Something that he hadn’t even done.

 

Lauren Hodge

We’ll pause there because that is an everyday situation for most people. Where you feel dysregulated and you feel those sensations. The idea is that when you start to track these things, you can start to notice, “okay, whenever I’m feeling anxious, angry, or stressed, this is where that goes. So that’s the moment I know, to take a deep breath and say, Hey, I’m feeling like I’m escalating quickly, internally, and I need five minutes, or I need to take a break and process and come back to you tomorrow with some better like some solutions.” It gives you the information you need to respond differently, and it takes a while to go through that. So then the next thing you do after you write those things out whenever you’re going through that experience. If you say, “You’re an asshole”, and then maybe you shut down at that point, you walk away. That’s where the stonewalling comes in, and then it takes a while for you guys to be able to communicate about it later. At that point, before you say those words, this process would be about pausing, and learning to pause before going into automatic response, and do that by practicing deep breathing.

 

When you start to write out these thoughts and feelings and body sensations, you can identify saying, “Oh, this thing is about to happen. This is the moment where I need to take a deep breath, this is a moment where my favorite thing is, is stick my hand up and say, Hey, I just need five minutes.” Or to explain, “hey, I actually am a processor who needs time to write out how I’m feeling about things. And I think if I respond right now, this isn’t going to go over well, I’m going to be emotionally flooded.” That’s kind of how you go through that, and you just let that emotion pass. It’s not that you don’t feel it, you feel the anger, but you let them know, like, “Hey, I’m angry. And I feel like I’m gonna say something that I would regret. And I want to be able to work through this. So let’s take a minute.”

 

Kendra Till

I think the biggest step for me, as I hear you talk about these steps is that it’s almost a level of accepting how you’re feeling. Sometimes I know that’s quite difficult for me to do to accept. I suppose taking that pause, instead of just completely reacting in either a physical way or verbal, or whatever that mechanism is. I find for me that acceptance is challenging.

 

Lauren Hodge

Sometimes depending on how strong the emotion is if you’re at a ten, which is where some people might go into drinking or whatever kind of coping mechanisms that are not necessarily helpful. Those moments instead of tapping deep into how you’re feeling, knowing that I am fully blown, I cannot communicate, I’m going to lose it. If I try, that’s when you need to put in the distractors, whatever that is for you. It could be like a walk on the beach or watching a movie to help you calm down, meditation, or exercise to help you feel okay to then eventually feel those feelings.

 

Kendra Till

I know we’re talking about emotional regulation specifically for ourselves, but could you provide any tips in terms of co-regulation with others? So for example, your partner or a family member, or even a co-worker, or kids, you find these dysregulation strategies that they’re not strategies, but they emotionally dysregulate. How can you help that situation?

 

Lauren Hodge

So with co-regulation. It can happen in a number of ways, but it’s when the person that you’re around if they are fully dysregulated, you notice they’re at an eight, nine or ten, where you remain regulated and grounded, and your breathing, to allow them to come back to their emotional center. So instead of you meeting them where they’re at, when they are yelling and fighting- or when they shut down and freeze- instead of meeting them in one of these dysregulated states, you’re staying here, like an even keel, and deep breathing, and remembering these steps, so that you can say, “you know, I can see that you’re really upset, and what you’re trying to say to me is that you’re upset, and you’re trying to tell me why I’m sure but you’re not communicating appropriately. I can’t work with this. I’m gonna wait for you to take five minutes to take a break.”

 

With a co-regulation, it shouldn’t be one person doing that every time it should be both ways. Otherwise, it’s emotional abuse, really. So you want to make sure that like both people are helping to coregulate. Then if you have a parent-child situation, obviously, the parent is the one that should stay regulated. So they are teaching the child how to bring themselves back down to that normal central emotional state. Co-regulation can be so intimate if you’re in a partner situation. I do this whenever I’m coaching people, when they’re getting upset, I make sure that I stay the regulated person in the group and then ensure that when they’re communicating how they’re feeling that I’m actively listening, and that can be another way to help somebody co-regulate, but you’re really just holding space for that person. They feel they can feel all of those emotions and do the tantrum that they’re having, but you’re staying grounded in yourself.

 

Kendra Till

That’s a useful skill. I’m sure something that has to be practiced, and a technique and skill.

 

Lauren Hodge

That’s right if when you practice emotion regulation it gives you the skills to start to be able to do that. Because then you can start to say, “Okay, where’s this behavior coming from of this other person?” You can take perspective, and you can take your five-second break just to regroup, and realize that most people aren’t trying to battle with you, especially if you’re in a relationship with them. They want to be able to communicate, but some just don’t have the skills yet. I think that’s really important. Now, one thing I would like to challenge everyone to do is to think about what your scale looks like that one to ten scale, like. When are you at a ten and fully disassociated and fully blown? And what are the tools in your toolkit for helping you emotionally regulate when you’re at that level? And what are the things that you do when you’re out of five? Take inventory of that so that you know where to go and how to get support for yourself whenever you’re feeling that way. Then practice these emotion regulation steps the next time you’re feeling like a five or six. You can work your way up to feeling more intense emotions by using it. But I think that can be useful.

We know that humans are wired for connection. So how do we connect, maintain friendships and meet new people? Especially, when social anxiety is higher than usual across the globe and we are in a new location or difficult season of life.

This episode will relate to everyone because we are all trying to remember how to connect and socialize after living in some degree of isolation during the pandemic. This episode is about how to create and maintain friendships.

We cover the reality and challenges when making friends in a new location, maintaining friendships over time, tips and our experiences with finding our people.

Listen to the Episode

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Links to resources mentioned:

• Love languages quiz
• Love languages book on Amazon

Read The Transcript

How to Create and Maintain Friendships

Lauren Hodge: We are all currently trying to remember how to connect after living in some degree of isolation during the pandemic. Also, a lot of people actually moved cities and states and countries during the pandemic. We know humans are wired for connection.

 

The question is, how do we connect and meet new people when social anxiety is higher than usual, we’re in a new location, and we’re trying to make friends?

 

Challenges and tips for finding friends in a new location and our experiences for meeting our craving for connection.

 

Kendra Till: Yeah, that’s absolutely right Lauren, and there’s actually research showing that the presence of social relationships has a positive impact both mentally and physically. That contributes to an individual’s general wellbeing, whereas the absence of social relationships can potentially increase an individual’s susceptibility to psychological distress.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, that’s really true, I think, for so many people. Some research findings show that social isolation can lead to higher rates of anxiety and aggression. So I think, any type of removal of social interactions for a prolonged period of time is usually having a negative effect.

 

I know there are a lot of people who actually need some downtime in between interactions, to not socialize. It’s not that we have to always be out socializing. And someone who is needing more space in their social calendar isn’t going to be anxious and angry- that’s not what I’m saying, but social interactions in general are important for mental health.

 

Kendra Till: I think those relationships, you know, they can be key players in affirming that sense of self, and also life satisfaction and fulfilling a basic human need for belongingness, too, isn’t it?

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah,that’s interesting that you mention the human need for belongingness because that is something that other researchers have looked at.

 

There was an article that was published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships by Jeffrey Hall that found that it takes roughly 50 hours of time together to move from being a mere acquaintance to a casual friend; 90 hours to go from being a casual friend to having that general friend status; and 200 hours to consider someone your close friends.

 

That’s how much interaction you need to feel somebody is a friend or to label them as a friend. Also, a big part of this is the type of interactions that you’re having with someone. This is what fosters that sense of belongingness. I think those interactions are really the ones where you’re hanging out, and you’re just catching up on your day. And you’re, joking around or, having a chat on the couch, are the interactions that really matter the most.

 

Kendra Till: That’s really fascinating. And I just have to say, 200 hours seems a lot. It’s a lot of time to spend with somebody, but I guess that’s also creating that sense of trust and being able to confide in with that person to discuss problems or important matters. I guess that time allows for those conversations to happen too, doesn’t it?

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, that’s exactly right. You can’t just snap your fingers and make her a friend, we have to actually build the time to do that and to check in and to remember the little things that are going on in their life. your first anniversary is today, isn’t it?

 

Kendra Till: Oh yeah, it is.

 

Lauren Hodge: One year anniversary for your wedding, right?

 

Kendra Till: That’s right. Jesse and I had a few laughs because this is the proper official wedding anniversary, but then we had a giggle because we also have an anniversary in June, which is when our first wedding was supposed to be scheduled. So even this morning when Jessie said Happy anniversary, it’s, well, technically, we’ve been married for two years, since our first wedding in 2020. But thank you, that’s, that’s really kind of you.

 

It is important, with your friends, to have that sense of connection and knowing of what’s going on in their lives and vice versa. It can be really important and creates that sense of trust and belonging.

 

Lauren Hodge: It is, it’s really fascinating. We are humans wired for connection and we have to put in the time. For me, this can be difficult, because I want to be really efficient, and so I don’t small talk, I don’t really enjoy texting on my phone.

 

Usually I wait until a certain period of the day, and that’s when I go and respond to the text messages that I have. I’m not one of those back and forth texters, but those back and forth conversations, where you just pick up the phone are really important. I prefer to just see people in person.I’m, “Okay, we’ll meet here and then we’ll connect” I think this is actually probably an important piece of information for me to take on.

 

Thinking about the challenges in meeting new people and attempting to make friends and build a community in a new place, there are a lot of things that come up.

 

Kendra Till: Absolutely, I think probably now more than ever, there seems to be more challenges and just referencing what you said just before about the amount of time it takes to actually establish your friends.

 

Before you can even get to that point of having more than one interaction with a potential friend, you have to meet with them and reach out to old friends. So this, this is the part that can be quite challenging. And especially in today’s environment as well, we’re likely to encounter these polarizing situations and conversations around important topics, including vaccines, Roe versus Wade or climate change, and gun control, just to name a few. So this can potentially prevent someone from fostering a friendship or even creating a new friendship with an individual with opposing views. This can also be a challenge that we face.

 

Lauren Hodge: I think there are ways to have these conversations that we’ll talk about later. But yeah, this is one of those things where it’s, “hey, if this person has these views, do I want to be friends with them?” That’s actually something that people are taking into consideration now before moving into a friendship.

 

We also have these very extreme views on either side of the spectrum, where there are a lot more people fitting into the extreme views on the left or right, and it’s creating this barrier for some people for making friends and connecting.

 

Kendra Till: Yeah, that’s such a good point. Another challenge I want to mention is just this sense of fear or being self conscious of going deeper, a level of vulnerability that can go with creating these friendships. Going back to that 200 plus hours of these interactions that you’re having. Opening up can create this sense of trust when you’re confiding in somebody, and again, you’re discussing either problems or important matters. And for some that can be really scary.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, the opening up aspect, and knowing what to share and when to share it, and if it’s okay to trust this person. I’m sure there’s so many pieces there that can be difficult, or maybe someone feels they’re a burden if they’re asking for support, when they are asking for the things that they need from friends.

 

Kendra Till: That’s right, you mentioned that sense of burden. I’ve actually heard people say that before, that they don’t want to feel a sense of burdening that other person. And it actually can create a deeper connection. Some people are just really hesitant to do that.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, that makes sense. As we get older, we’re also looking for quality friends over quantity. I would rather have a handful or two of really close high quality friends. I think that volume and the number of friends we have is something that probably mattered to us when we were younger, because it means that you fit in or you’re popular- you maybe felt you ‘made it’. Things happen though, and we lose long term friends over time through death, depending on age, and all the other psychological things that go on, to falling out, a new chapter in life changing and growing, and all of that.

 

I think quality is a big one, and can be a challenge because it’s what are the indicators of quality. Then thinking also about everyone using their phones to supplement social interactions, where we get these feel-good hormones released, whenever we’re using our phones, to the number of s that we get on an Instagram post or story. You’re feeling these really good, feel-good hormones. And it’s tricking your brain into thinking that this is what you need for social interactions.

 

It’s really important to still have in-person interactions, knowing that you’re not going to get the same feel-good hormones when you’re socializing in person and meeting in person for the first time. It might be a little bit awkward, you will not get the same feel-good hormones, then, as you do when you get 200 s on an Instagram real or something. But knowing that it’s those in-person social interactions that lead to long-term positive health and happiness.

 

Kendra Till: I think also, we were conditioned during the pandemic period because we were unable to see people face to face as often as we probably would have d to. That was our only way to reach out to people. But now that we’re emerging from the other side of it, we have to put in the effort to make these face-to-face touch points and conversations with people to build quality friends.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah

 

Kendra Till: Right, for sure. Another challenge is that some people can struggle to admit that they are lonely. So, you know, if you find you’re lonely and self-isolated, particularly in this midlife period, sometimes we can tend to think that it’s a personal failing, and then that can cause a sense of shame that could potentially prevent us from seeking out new friendships as well. So I think that’s another one.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah. For single people, there can be a sense of loneliness, because you’re not getting the same interactions with others. I think loneliness stems from not getting that same form of coregulation. Having other human bodies around to socialize with or when you’re experiencing a hard thing can relieve the stress for you so that you can work through it and feel a little bit calmer in their presence. So anyways, that all makes sense, and admitting that you’re lonely, I’m sure would for some people be difficult.

 

Kendra Till: Yeah. And just another challenge I want to mention too, and this is something that I’m finding at the moment is just reconnecting with old friends. And what I mean by that is friends that I’ve had, you know, through even when I was living in the US, and I had been in Australia for 13 years and Lauren similar to you coming back into the US and then reconnecting with these friends either from college or you know, even earlier than that and just finding out.

 

What is important to you in those friendships and navigating that time frame, if you haven’t been staying in touch with them as much, just trying to find that common ground again.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, definitely for sure. I think finding that common ground and reconnecting is interesting too. Because it’s, do you want to reconnect? How do you choose who you want to reconnect with? If you had the choice, I would think about Brene Brown’s book Daring Greatly when she talks about marble jar friends to explain the concept of trust. And she’s talking about her daughter’s experience of when she was significantly betrayed in the third grade when she shared a secret with a friend who then went on to share the secret with the class. And it was very embarrassing, and everyone in the class was laughing at her daughter, and her daughter was really upset when she picked her up from school. So when she was talking to her daughter, she used the concept of the marble jar friends to explain the types of friends that we want to keep close to us, and or to make friends with. And these are people that can hold your vulnerability with care, and understand what’s important to you. And they support your happiness without that urge to one-up you or steal the show or whatever they show up on

 

I think an excellent example of showing off is, I have a friend who is explaining to me these couple of really meaningful moments that she had when her parents both passed away at different times. And there was a friend of hers who just showed up and was there while she was organizing her father’s funeral. And that friend happened to have a Subaru she owned. So all she did was drive my friend around and the Subaru to get all the things done that she needed to do and to take things from one place to another and can pick up people from the airport or whatever. But she was with her the full time and just drew. And that was all she needed. And that one piece of showing up and that one act is what solidified her as a trusted close friend. These are ways I think, you know, I can think about the experiences that you may have had over time.

 

Kendra Till: That’s so fascinating because it is it’s stripping the ego a little bit and just purely coming down to that acts of kindness and being there wholeheartedly for that person without having you know, you said, you don’t have to one-up the other person is just doing it out of the pure goodness of your heart. And that can be felt.

 

Lauren Hodge: And they also encourage you to be brave. And they challenge you. And they willingly share avoiding that scarcity mentality, but they willingly, you know, share their thoughts and share with you their experiences that they’re having. And they enrich your friendship with small moments and actions that show that they care.

 

My mom was really sick last year at MUSC, which is a hospital here in Charleston, which is why I moved back here and that’s why I’m in Charleston is the friend who showed up while she was in the hospital the friends that were here in Charleston who really checked in with me and that had friends that worked at the hospital who even checked in on my mom when I couldn’t be there when I was in Denver and couldn’t fly because of COVID. I actually couldn’t go to the hospital and be with her, which is hard to talk about isolation and then not being able to go and you know, be there for your mother who is going through a lot. Yeah, as far as life or death type things. The people who showed up who checked in on her for me or who were here, and you know as to be there in support of me are the ones that I connected with in those moments, right?

 

Kendra Till: And that was just as acts of service that they provided for you during that time supported you in so so many ways emotionally probably even physically I remember that was a hard time for you being in Denver during that period. And I can imagine that just would have been such a huge, I guess relief Just knowing that that support was there and probably just helped you eventually, it did. Yeah. And also other things. Whenever I moved from Denver to Charleston, I had two friends that showed up at my apartment, they switched off, each night or every couple of nights, helped me pack all my boxes, label them, organize my stuff, all of it, so that I wasn’t doing that alone. And again, we were very isolated and diverse. So these are times where, you know, covid rates are high. And these types of things for them to do weren’t easy, but they still did that. And that’s why, you know, I think that’s another way we build trust by showing up for friends and doing that. I know you did this for me, too.

 

In Australia, actually, Kendra and I were moving to Melbourne when I was moving from the Gold Coast, and he showed up, I was, in the thick of it, really just I was, I can’t do, look at this closet. This has been 10 years of my stuff, and you were like “you’re not taking that, this is going to Salvation Army.” I needed someone to take over just as Jesus took the wheel freely. It is such an overwhelming process moving. And I can guarantee that so many of us are going to move or have moved in our lifetimes. And so that’s a little tip right there to be a good friend, be there for your friends when they’re moving. Because yeah, the same as your lawyer. You helped me mentally. I mean, when I remember calling you and I was about to move to the US, and I would just ask your advice on things, it was just such an overwhelming idea of moving internationally.

 

And there’s just a lot to consider, especially during the pandemic. And so Lauren, you were incredibly helpful there for me during that period, and you just gave me advice. And you were just there for me, which was so helpful. So thank you for that. And I guess in terms of, you know, just reflecting on that sense of, you know, as I mentioned earlier, the fear of self-conscious of going deeper into relationships, I guess I can think of a story when, I had gone through some fertility things, and it was a really difficult time for me, just to even understand what was going on doctor’s appointments, treatments, etc. And I kept it to myself, I became quite insular about it.

 

And I found that during that process of actually opening it up to my friend group, Lauren, even for you, I remember just talking about it and going through my thought process and my fears and my concerns. And, you know, there are a lot of tears, there are a lot of these really deep conversations that I was honestly scared to talk about. Because it’s almost that fear of the reality of talking about or the fact of talking about it made it a reality. So, looking in retrospect, that was so vital for my well-being at that time. And so, I opened up to a handful of really, really close friends and I know that made me know that made my friendship stronger. And it supported me in ways that I needed support, that I didn’t even know that I needed that level of support.

 

Lauren Hodge: It’s you reaching out and you asked for help, and they showed up, and they listened for sure, you’re a support system.

 

Kendra Till: But it can be scary, you know, some of these elements of going deeper and these, you know, let it be experienced that have happened in the past for yourself, or, you know, things that you’re going through currently, I think it’s just important to, you know, to seek out people that you trust and continue having those conversations or even starting those conversations because yeah, it can be it can enrich those friendships.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that’s so important to think about whenever we’re considering Yeah, who friends have cultivated relationships so I think to train new relationships with are the ones who’ve shared off that, I’m sure of it. Now so Kendra, and I did add a challenge this week. We knew we were recording this podcast episode so for the last week, we decided we’re gonna choose three activities for each of us to help us meet people or reconnect with old friends. I’m curious, how did you go with this Kindra with your three activities? Which ones did you choose? And how did they pan out as far as reconnecting with old friends or making new friends?

 

Kendra Till: Yes, that’s me, when we first set the challenge, I admittedly had a little sense of, oh my gosh, I’m a bit overwhelmed by this. But once I got into it, and I started to, I broke it down. I said, Okay, Let’s reconnect with an old friend. So I reached out to someone that I went to college with, to go for a coffee, and it was one of those situations where she was, Yeah, super keen to catch up, and we just couldn’t lock in a date.

 

So I think a little tip is that we’ll both have to be you know, not let that idea slip and make sure that we keep following up. So we do lock in something. Another thing that I did is I joined a new exercise class, which I’ve never done before in my life. It was so much fun. I’ve done peloton before, but it’s so different when you go in and you’re with other people, and you just get this whole vibe and energy. And so I went with A friend who was the instructor. So I went to her class, but I met a new friend through her. So I met someone that was right next to me. And so that was really lovely. And we had a good conversation. And so that was really nice.

 

Lauren Hodge: Is Cycle Bar, is it SoulCycle, where they give you inspiring, motivating things?

 

Kendra Till: Yeah, playing music was awesome. This is something that gets me because that can be quite competitive, but they put the leaderboard up there. And so during those times when you, you know, through a certain time period, you have to push really hard. And so it was just awesome. It was really fun. And I’m looking forward to going back there. But then the third thing that I did is I participated in a workshop that was something that I was interested in, it was called Happy hips. And so it’s just something that I’m interested in with my Pilates, you know, passion. And so I was able to go in there and meet like-minded people. So it was awesome. It was cool. So how did you go with your challenge? I’m interested to hear how you went.

 

Lauren Hodge: So I had a couple of things I was trying to meet new people and cultivate old, existing relationships. And so what I tried the first one was I started tennis lessons and I got this idea from you. Because I know you’re starting tennis lessons and want to find another sport outside of surfing that I can do a lot by just grabbing you know, in this case, grabbing the racket and going out to the tennis court and it’s close by. And it’s easy, but I have never played tennis a day in my life.

 

I went to a tennis camp when I was in middle school, but I don’t even know if we played tennis. I remember running around with my friends on those. I don’t remember playing tennis, which is funny. I’m sure we did. But either way, I don’t know how to play tennis. So I joined a tennis 101 class at Creekside Tennis and Swim Club. And I did meet three women who were part of the group. And we were, you know, chatting. And I think a lot of people do it to socialize. But it’s also just a way to open up more social activities because a lot of people play tennis and it’s a good way to get outside. Not a lot of people surf. So I’m finding that when I ask people to do stuff, I’m either asking them normally to go for a walk on the beach, or the other one is the extreme which is surfing. And that would be such a small handful of people that can do that. So I’m trying to open up my opportunities for meeting people through that.

 

Kendra Till: How did it go with your first tennis lesson?

 

Lauren Hodge: I’m terrible. I’m terrible. I honestly do this thing where my wrist is a broken wrist, which means the ball goes all the way off the court. So I’m having to learn how to hit the racquet without breaking my wrist. I’m hyper-mobile.

 

Kendra Till: But it’s a good way to invite friends to, “Hey, you want to go play tennis?” So you’ve got that under your belt, so you can offer that as an option. So that’s fun.

Lauren Hodge: It was fun. So then the next thing I did was I got tickets to this candlelight classical music concert. And I invited one of my girlfriends here to go to that and we went to dinner afterward. And we kind of, you know, connected And I mean, we normally would connect,

 

I think the thing that I don’t normally do is, reach out to activities and invite people to do them. I kind of just let that happen organically. But now I’m seeking out some, I love art, say, seeking out those types of things. And then the third thing was the plan was to serve on Thursday night with weights for women group that they just do a, you know, an open surf meet up and folly. But I think trying to do anything is on Thursday, at 530. Foley, which is about a 40 to 45-minute drive on at that hour, for me is optimistic because it’s a work day, and you’re usually finishing, I am finishing work at 530 or six. So already it would have been rushing it and I ended up working very late that night, you set a deadline. So I didn’t make it. I think I was trying to be overscheduled. I think I over-scheduled myself. And I think probably the most realistic thing for me is to try to do two activities a week and not try three. And

 

Kendra Till: It was ambitious, wasn’t it?

 

Lauren Hodge: I was very ambitious. I’m glad that I was committed to it. But then yeah, I definitely will do that. Just not that it didn’t happen this Thursday, don’t have to be on a weekend. I think they do a concert on Saturday. So I’ll probably in a couple of weekends. Try that. So yeah, I think it’s all off. It’s good. I had things planned for next week, too. So I’m continuing this idea of scheduling and stuff to meet people and to cultivate friendships and I’m enjoying it.

 

Kendra Till: Yeah, that’s such a good point, I find that I’m sick, similar to you, this has ignited me to keep up this trend of putting myself out there and meeting new friends. So what I found is that, although I’ve been intending to have it for six months, it’s not that long of a time. So I’m still wanting to meet new people. And I guess a nice little tip on this is that, in terms of creating friendships, is to ask yourself every morning, How can I feel connected today?” So it’s a really good mindfulness activity that helps to prompt you to think about ways to either meet new people or even to stay in touch with people. So you know, it could be a matter of Okay I’m going to make a point in my calendar to schedule or to sign up for that volunteer event within my community. Or if it’s, or even connecting with older or old friends, it could just be a matter of, you know, sending a text or an email that says, Hey, I’ve just been thinking of you, I hope you’re doing well. Or let’s catch up for a happy hour, something that. So I think that that’s been something for me. I want to continue that. And so creating that mindfulness exercise is going to help that.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, I do that idea, especially putting it in the calendar to remind yourself to do it, because I’m a huge scheduler, if it’s not in the calendar, it’s not going to happen. So I did it. Whenever we decided to do that challenge. That’s where I first went to my calendar to say, okay, when’s the time, I can schedule this, I put the time in to say, let’s schedule three connection activities, and then put the time of the connection activities in my calendar as well. Because without that, making space for it, it’s not going to be a priority, you know, you have to prioritize it. So what’s so important? I do that, for sure.

 

Kendra Till: And I think another important tip with creating new relationships is what something and you and I both did as we practice to the courage to do it, you know Stripe being able to strike up conversations or, you know, I think it’s important to note that level of courage to create these new friendships. And then also just highlighting the importance of participating in becoming involved in activities or hobbies. an art class or an art language class or this is a good exercise which is w t we were doing for the cycle bar for you for tennis. I’m a huge advocate for that but it is a great way to meet new people and also just going places that to help meet minded people such as the park you know, if you’re taking your kids to the park or you know certain markets farmer’s markets, for example, I know I’ve met people in the past that I’ve become friends with through the farmers market.

 

A funny story. This is before I left Australia, and there was a lady that sold Ken Bucha at the farmer’s markets in Palm Beach, and I have been going to have for you ours to get my kombucha every Saturday. Go get my kombucha from her. And we would strike up conversations and they would be quite meaningful conversations. And she was just such a warm, lovely person. And you know, when it gets to a stage where I don’t even think we knew each other’s names, but we would just have this connection. And when I was moving, the last time I went to the markets, I was trying to hold it together the whole time, by saying goodbye to people, because I can get overwhelmed with those immense amounts of goodbyes when you’re leaving somewhere. And I went up to get my can of Bucha. And I told her, I was, you know, look, this is going to be the last time that I come in here. We’re moving to the US. And I ugly cried, Lauren, I was in hysterics, and she gave me the biggest warmest hug ever. And I still to this day, it was the sweetest thing. But anyway, you can meet really good friends at the farmer’s market.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, I love that idea. And I’m not sure if you said that she is older. But I think what I also think is important is nurturing and finding new friends who are older people, meaning people who are in their 60s 70s, or 80s, who, you know, were impacted by the pandemic, people who are elderly, and people who have dementia, especially without this social connections. You know, they were some of the most isolated people, meaning elderly people. And so I think even without that, we have so much to learn from, wisdom to learn from the older people in our communities. And we don’t, I don’t do this enough, where I reach out to older people too, to kind of get to know them. And, you know, have those conversations. I know, one friend of mine does this, where she has an exchange with an older person that came out organically, that this friend of hers had a skill in editing and proofreading.

 

So she’s kind of become her writing and tour and they have weekly calls or weekly conversations. In the friend of hers, the older friend gets out of it, she’s getting that social connection out of it. And they talked about this, this is an interaction that is important to both of them. I guess another thing I think about too is when we’re in these social situations, it doesn’t matter. Older new friends, oftentimes, you’ll see people have their phones out or they’re on their phone, texting and doing that sort of thing. But a tip and a challenge that I would say for all of the listeners are trying next time you go to lunch, or you go to dinner, and you’re with somebody to not take your phone out of your purse or once everyone gets there because now you have to message make sure people are arriving if it’s a group thing that I once everyone gets there and is at the table leader put your phone in your purse and, and don’t allow it to be that distractor. After all, I think we’re all so distracted. Oftentimes when we’re in a conversation and not fully present. So there’s I think that’s an interesting thing to think about.

 

Kendra Till: That’s a great, great tip. And I have that challenge because I couldn’t imagine it’s probably going to be challenging for some people, but having that awareness because of the phone can be such a distraction. Such a distraction. Another tip and I just want to highlight this again, I know we’ve spoken about it, but just that sense of, you know, showing trust by sharing and being able to ask for help. So I think that it’s important, that having that level of trust and opening up can bind and create a sacred space within a friendship. So it just goes beyond that surface level, and you’re sharing parts of your life that are sometimes very hard or painful. But asking for help from each other is important. And providing and receiving that space creates a really strong bond.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, that’s why I think asking for help is so difficult sometimes, especially for people who have more perfectionist tendencies, but I think in general, we’re not taught how to ask for what we need and ask for help from friends. So yeah, I think that that can build a closer bond, you just said, That’s interesting. Okay, so it sounds like what you’re saying as you kind of build up your opinion as you build these trust and bonds in a relationship by asking for being able to ask for help and ask for support and that makes sense. Sweet sense to me because I think there’s even a process of learning how to be self-aware for that to work. Because to know what to ask for, you have to know yourself, you have to know what your needs are, you have to do some journaling about what you’re meeting and avoiding or, you know, understand yourself to be able to ask for what you need.

 

So I think that it’s your kind of building a connection in multiple ways. So I’m just curious about this topic around polarizing conversations. You know, I was listening back during, in, 2020, when there are a lot of different topics coming up in the news around Black Lives Matter. And now we have the abortion topic there all of these polarizing topics that you mentioned. And I was listening to Chris’s activity, podcasts on Bing, and she talks about having humanizing conversations versus polarizing conversations. And I really d that and that it’s not saying to avoid, the polarizing conversations are saying, though, to focus on having when you have multiple people at a table, or in a room who have lots of different viewpoints, and they’re probably really outspoken about their viewpoints, that to focus on the parts of the conversation, or the parts of the topic that everyone experiences, instead of going to the extreme about, with abortion, instead of going to the extremes of, well, you know, babies shouldn’t be aborted at 38 weeks, nobody’s trying to abort babies that 38 weeks.

 

But anyways, the point is, we go into more of a humanizing conversation about, you know, so many people are having extra stress right now, from the changes that have happened in their own lives or personal lives from the pandemic. That’s a humanizing conversation. Another humanizing conversation might be about, you know, these are similar stressors that a lot of parents experience in life, while they are parenting, and managing children who are socially isolated, and for a long time, and the types of things that they’re going through. So it’s those types of conversations where you know, you can find a common topic, even though everyone has different experiences, to discuss and to talk about when we do have polarizing. When we are finding ourselves in these polarizing conversations, we don’t want to avoid them, right?

 

Kendra Till: That’s right, yeah. And if you do find yourself in a very polarized conversation, it can feel like walking a tightrope. And what you want to focus on is the why of the conversation. And that intention can almost act as a balancing poll when you’re helping to traverse the wire. And also to stay true to what you want to achieve from that conversation.

 

So a really good question to ask yourself or questions to ask yourself is, why am I having this conversation? And is my intent to convince someone of my position or is my intent to find a mutual ground? So I think that can be a really helpful way to Yeah, just to navigate those conversations. And as you mentioned, Lauren with Krista Tippett, actually suggests cultivating curiosity without assumptions, which I love. And she says, it’s almost a breeding ground for compassion, and open-mindedness. So just remember that everyone’s individual experience is really valuable.

 

Lauren Hodge: It’s okay to put words or script to that, it’s okay to say, hey, I respect your opinion, I don’t see it that way. But I respect that you have that opinion. And, you know, having something that is a way of saying something, I don’t agree, but I am listening, and then maybe getting curious and asking them about, where are these different things coming from? Where are they? Why do they think that way and just share openly? I do that, that tip, I think that’s so important is ensuring that you’re in the conversation to understand to, to, you know, with curiosity instead of in it to prove a point.

 

Kendra Till: Well, I’ll give you an example. Because especially in new relationships, so when you first meet somebody and so I’ll use an example where Jesse’s met a new friend here and they’ve been golfing together and doing a lot of activities together and have a lot of common ground but they do have very upset Using views on a particular topic, and that came up in conversation, and I was impressed when he came home and told me about it, that they were able to just understand that they had their differences, and that was respected, but they were still able to talk about it healthily, so it didn’t change their relationship. It didn’t, you know, prevent them from continuing into strengthening and developing the relationship. But I just thought it was really interesting.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, and it does happen. And it’s an important part of it because we all are entitled to have our thoughts and beliefs and whatever. And we don’t want to cancel people just because they have different beliefs than us. We want to cultivate more of an understanding with them. So the other thing that I think about when we’re thinking about nurturing existing relationships is this thing around taking, I to call them girl dates.

 

So take a friend, a girlfriend out on a date, the candlelight, classical music thing that I went to. That’s what I was considering that and it’s, you’re you are kind of getting to know this person, you’re treating it you would date, where you’re not interviewing them, but you’re getting to know them at their core to see you is this somebody that I want to go from being a casual friend to a, a long term friend, and, but you know, doing that through exciting activities that you both enjoy together because that’s how you also build those connections is, is by doing things that, you know, having those deeper conversations, but also doing things that make you feel filled up.

 

Kendra Till: It’s such a neat, unique mindset, going into that, having that one-on-one time with somebody and you’re creating that space and going to do something together. And you’re having, you said those conversations, because similar to when you’re on a date, you want to get to know somebody and so you’re asking the important questions and getting, you know, I guess just getting to know them. And yeah, you can find out a lot about somebody in those more intimate environments, too. So,

 

Lauren Hodge: exactly. I think one question that I should ask in these situations, or one question that you could ask, and I’m curious about this, for a number of reasons, is about their love language. Now, your love language is really used normally and I determine your own love language or, and your partner’s love language, because knowing that information allows you to understand the ways that your partner might express and receive love, and how you express to receive love. Because oftentimes, those things might not be the same. But so you could be giving love if your love language is giving gifts.

 

So you might be giving your partner, you know, necklaces, and, you know, cute bracelets, or clothes or whatever. And then it turns out that their love language is, you know, quality time and spending time together. And at the end of your relationship, you’re wondering why this person says to you, I don’t feel loved in this relationship. I’ve been giving you gifts and that’s right, so you’ve been doing this thing that they actually do not receive as love what they receive is love what they see as love is spending time together. So the whole time you wasted 1000s of dollars and all these gifts that you didn’t have to do now. You know, that’s just one example. But that’s the idea around love languages. And we all want, we all have some probable percentage of all of the love languages across the board.

 

But you only have a primary one, those really nice things can help you understand what this person needs to feel appreciated. And I think using that, and a friendship can be really interesting, because it’s the same they’ve used the love languages, they translated it for the work setting for managers to understand how to praise or to show their appreciation for their employees. So depending on your love language and eating, yeah, it just kind of gives you a different way of understanding what somebody needs. So that they feel loved and appreciated and will, you know, want to continue that.

 

Kendra Till: Yeah, that’s really fascinating because I can see how that would be so useful, not only in the working environment, but also when I with our partners and friendships is to understand that those differences can really create the sense of I guess Understanding if we know that okay, exactly to your point if this person’s love language is acts of service, and this one is a gift to not to understand that they’re still showing love. And they’re just, it’s just different ways of doing it, and what resonates with them.

 

Lauren Hodge: What’s your love language?

 

Kendra Till: So I did the test, and I found out that my love language is quality time, so I feel connected with undivided attention. And this for me is, so you’re not sitting on the couch watching TV together, it’s actually you’re sitting in there, and you’re, you know, the TV’s gonna be off, and you’re actually having a conversation, without any sort of distractions, such as your phone. As you mentioned earlier, it could also mean, you know, going for walks together or grabbing a coffee together. So those are really, I guess, important to me. And, and taking that time to actually yeah, to spend it with somebody is my love, love language.

 

Lauren Hodge: So could love for you, does that translate into? Because, quality time can look different for everybody? Does that translate into? Could that be sitting on the couch with the phones away and the TV off and having a conversation? Or is it doing? And it could be both of these things? Or is it an activity together? Where you’re, you know, enjoying that activity?

 

Kendra Till: That’s a really good question. And I would say it would be both. I do love how I love having those conversations. But then I also love the activities together. So taking a cooking class together or, you know, if it’s going on a trip together, it’s that quality time. And in those realms, it’s just very, very important to me. And that’s, yeah, that’s my love language.

 

Lauren Hodge: That’s great. I was gonna say that would be. So if you’re meeting new people and wanting to do things with them, that would be your idea of going to a cooking class or something like that. Mine is also quality time.

 

Kendra Till: Interesting.

 

Lauren Hodge: In terms of socializing for me, that looks like music, going to see music art, together with the other person., that’s why I joined this one on tennis athletes doing one on one tennis once I learned how to play. And surfing together. I think I love those types of activities. And then I also really the deeper level conversations, you know, television off, we were saying, phone away and really getting to know someone and asking questions, even if we’re just at dinner, how are you really feeling and what’s really going on for you I am terrible at small talk, actually really bad at it. I can either go deep or just be silent.

 

Kendra Till: I admire deep conversations. And I’ve been with you and obviously you and I have had a lot of deep conversations. But when I see, you know, when I’m there, if it’s a smaller group setting, I just absolutely love your deep conversations and just the questions and you’re just so invested. And you’re such a great listener. So I love that.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah. And I mean, I think too, when we’re thinking about these different love languages, asking the person not only what their love language is, but what does that look for them because my mom’s top one is also quality time taught love language. And sorry, we haven’t gone through it. They all are. There’s quality time acts of service. Gifts, gift giving physical touch, and words of affirmation. And words of affirmation is actually my second one, but quality time, my mom, that’s one of hers. And when I asked her what that meant for her and her husband. And she said that it’s choosing a movie that they want to watch together. And then they’re, basically, if you watch a movie with them it is hilarious, which I do not do. Because this kills me when I don’t watch a lot of TV. But what they do is constantly, they’re commenting, and they’re chatting about the movie while it’s going on which is great. They love it. That’s their connection, honestly. And they love it and

 

I’m just, Okay, I’m out if we’re having a full conversation here. And I’m not sure what’s actually going on. I mean, sometimes it’s useful conversation because they’re giving background information if it’s a show that I don’t know anything about but yeah, that’s their idea of of quality time so for everyone, it could really be different for someone else that might be you know, driving and I one of my clients was saying that driving her parents it was driving to get a root beer float. Watching was their idea of quality time and I was that is really the sweetest thing I’ve ever heard of it. You know, I guess I can see driving to get the root beer float. But I don’t know, I’m not a big people watcher. Anyways, there’s all types of ways to look at it. But I think it’s just important whether you use the love language session, but, it’s more of just asking those kinds of questions to really understand anyone that you’re wanting to, fostering our friendship or relationship with that could be a fun way to do it. For sure.

 

Kendra Till: And you get to know yourself and what you know, it really helps to finesse the certain activities or words or gifts, you know, what is it in particular? How do you display your love? And you said reciprocation so and I guess it’s important not to necessarily pigeonhole yourself, if you find out what your love language is, and you said, Lauren, your second one was words of affirmation. So I can imagine that would have,, it was at a close second for you that net?

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah. So just raise basically, yeah, kind of, specific indirect praise, about what I’m doing, or what I’ve done or anything about anything, really. That’s a big one for me.

 

Kendra Till: And I guess just then,, knowing that it’s all these, these necessary, they’re all necessary ingredients for a healthy relationship, you know, such as acts of service, or, you said, words of affirmation. So just knowing that, as it’s important to know that you love languages, but that it’s also all of the acts of kindness and acts of love that can play a big effect there.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, I think the other side of this, too. So that’s one strategy that you can use. But I think the reality of what we’re experiencing is this, the struggle to get back out there and have conversations with people when we’ve been experiencing it. And when I say isolation, I’m also referring to everyone getting used to, only hanging out with their friend group, because you weren’t really allowed to,, expand that during COVID.

 

So a lot of people kind of have these weird social norms now, where, when you’re walking down the street before COVID,, you would probably give someone a smile or look at them. But then during COVID, we had the mask on and it felt weird to look at someone and make eye contact, and you definitely weren’t, well, maybe you’re smiling, but you couldn’t see it. And, you know, under the mask, and at that, I think that created this, a social norm and not even looking at other people or considering other people and interacting with them. Because I’m assuming so, I’m gonna give them COVID. If I look up, it was this weird thing where you had to wear that constantly.

 

Kendra Till: Almost a sense of anxiety, too, isn’t it?

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, that’s right, exactly. Okay. And I think I’d be interested to see the research on this, but from what I’m hearing from clients and friends, is that, you know, there’s a social,, there’s social anxiety that we all have from this isolation, not everyone, but most people will get more anxious and more isolated you are so if somebody’s norm for, for their anxiety levels, if we’re thinking on a scale of one to 10, if they are normally socially anxious, maybe they’re normally at a five or six, on that scale, after the pandemic are still in the pandemic. So,, after two and a half years in the pandemic, they might now be at a seven or an eight on that scale. So they’re feeling more anxious. Now for somebody who maybe was two or three socially anxious wise, they’re probably at a four or five, or even a six now.

 

So everyone’s just feeling just a little bit more anxious and getting out there. And I’m just curious, and I have not looked at this exact thing about is it NGS? I’ve heard a lot about this. But is it about talking to other people without knowing? Is there a fear on how to connect and what to say? Is it a worry about being judged for being boring, because we didn’t have a lot of exciting travel experiences during COVID? Or something? And, you feel you don’t have much to say, because you haven’t really had a life lately? Or is there? Is there something else there? That is making us feel anxious about it? Now, I know there is research that shows if we look at people who have been in isolation for a while,, I don’t know the exact time period, but if they are one of those people who enjoys socializing, they can actually, it can change their brain, too, because they’re in survival while they’re isolated, to make them feel those are the things that they enjoy that they enjoy being isolated, and so it becomes harder For them, once they’re out of isolation to connect, because they have kind of reworked their, safety, how they how, where and how they feel safe to saying, Okay, I do feel safe when I’m isolated. But really, we feel really safe when we’re around people, as humans and as being humans wired for connection. So I just find that very fascinating.

 

Kendra Till: That’s very fascinating. And especially because a lot of these isolation periods went on for quite a significant amount of time. You know, these weren’t little short, sharp, isolation periods, they were quite significant. And so it’s during the pandemic. You know, I know, in Australia, we had very long lockdown periods in particular, in this, you know, down in New South Wales, and Victoria. And so, and I’ve actually heard of friends, that they hadn’t been able to see their parents and two years, and they had commented on the fact that they notice a significant difference with their parents, and terms of how they, how they interacted, and just that level of, not fear, but just distance almost. So I think that’s really the same as you, I’d be interested to see what that research is.

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, I’ll find it. And I’ll share it in the show notes. But I mean, I know that basically, it’s showing that once we’ve been isolated, we’ve started to train our brain to accept that into things that we enjoy. So then, in my, my strategy, and this is not supported by science, but my strategy has been to make myself do those things anyways, even though I think, oh, no, I would actually really just prefer to sit home and read, which I do want to do. And I do that. But, when I want to go there, it’s doing what we did this week and scheduling these things. Because I do feel better. When I am connected to people, I do feel less stressed when I’m connected to people. So it’s almost doing the opposite of what you think you want. As long as you’re feeling safe. And you know, being able, you’re able to manage the things that are going on the to do list. I also think another interesting thing that I am curious about is if somebody and we saw this a lot where the drinking rates, right, were on a high during COVID, because of all of the things that were surfacing emotionally, and all of the things that are going on with people within their relationships. And so I’m curious if you had an addiction before COVID. And your addiction previously helps you mitigate your anxiety about socializing, that if you became sober during COVID, and now we’re socializing. So we weren’t socializing, when you became swinging, when you became sober. But now that we are, what does that look like ? When you’re now trying to socialize sober and be around people and you’re interacting with people there would be, I’m sure, challenges with that outside of just the ones that we’re talking about. Because you’re also thinking,, don’t want to be in a place that would maybe trigger that, or whatever the process is around, considering where and who to hang out with whenever you’re sober, so that the relapse is less likely. That you know, and I guess it also depends on what stage of sobriety you’re in, whether or not you would want to be around those environments and all of that.

 

Kendra Till: that can really play such an effect, you know, to your point with existing friendships and creating new friendships. Because, you know, a lot of times in terms of when you meet new people around restaurants and bars, and you know, that can always be a way of, hey, let’s go catch up for let’s go happy hour, or let’s go out for dinner. And there’s a lot of time alcohol is involved. And so to your point, you know, coming out of that, you know, that pandemic, and yeah, it’s just that, that new realm of okay, well, what is this going to look for me?

 

Lauren Hodge: Yeah, and the realm of, you know, when you think about the activities that you’re putting in, and if you do this challenge, also of trying to, do three new things, finding things that for me, I’m not a sober person. I’m super curious, but I’m not, savor it. However, what I am curious about,, what I tried to do is scheduling stuff that isn’t centered around alcohol, because, I mean, you could do that at dinner, or you can do that anywhere else. why,, only find activities that are related to alcohol, and that’s just me, and I think that things that would probably be really useful in that space. So I challenge the listener to pick three activities this week to meet new people or engage with old friends. And you know, really try to kind of open up your circle if you’re wanting to meet new people and cultivate a community.

 

During this episode, we talk about the importance of flow state, what it is, and how to activate it in your day-to-day life.