In Shake It Off Episode 21 Lauren and Kendra speak with special guest Claudia Amarsi, Master Breathwork Facilitator and trainer and owner of Amarsi.
Claudia helps you heal yourself with breathwork through trauma release, integration, and self mastery through in-person and virtual breathwork classes, facilitator training, workshops, and retreats.

Lauren and Kendra talk with Claudia all about the origins of breathwork, the impact of breathwork on our mental, emotional, and physical states, and so much more!

You can find all the podcast episodes at https://www.drlaurenhodge.com/podcast/

We created this podcast to give you the tools, strategies, and stories to handle the unexpected BS that life throws your way. We plant ourselves firmly at the gates of truth-telling and we discuss how to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.
If you like what you hear, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify and Apple Podcast and tell us what part you liked most.

*This is not medical advice. Please get in touch with your doctor or healthcare practitioner before making any changes to your healthcare plan.*

Listen to the Episode

Listen to the Podcast on Spotify >>

Read The Transcript

Kendra Till

Welcome to Shake It Off a podcast that gives you the tools, strategies, and stories to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.

Lauren Hodge

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to shake it off. Kendra and I are speaking with Claudia Amarsi. She’s a master breathwork, facilitator and trainer, and owner of a charity. And she helps you heal yourself through breath work, using trauma release integration and self-mastery. I originally met Claudia in Denver, and we’re both members of a social club called Archipelago. This social club is all about providing spaces and opportunities for deep human connection growth and learning. And one of the workshops that I attended was Claudia’s breathwork classes. And it was incredible how she held space and guided us through this breathwork process. After the session, I felt this profound sense of calm and ease at a stressful time. And I’m so excited to introduce everybody to Claudia, thank you so much Claudia for being here with us today. I appreciate having you on the podcast.

Claudia Amarsi

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Lauren Hodge

So I’m curious, can you tell us your story about how you got into breathing? And what inspired you to start a Marcy?

Claudia Amarsi

Yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting, it was a personal journey to begin with. I didn’t expect that this would evolve into a new career path and a new business. It was originally found in breath work when I was in a deep self-exploration, a journey of self-healing. I was going through what I can only define as a night of the soul, like everything was not working, my marriage was ending, and my job was in flux. As I was getting laid off, I was coming to realize that I was deeply unhappy, even though I hadn’t had awareness of that until that point until everything started kind of crashing and I realized that I never wanted to be in that spot again. And what did I need to do to make sure that that didn’t happen again, and, realizing that I was the common denominator in all of the problems and everything that was happening, and that was hard to accept. But once I had that awareness, I was like, alright, never again, I’m gonna work with every possible teacher or tool or modality started with very traditional things like therapy, and group work, and so much content, so many books, so many podcasts, lots of yoga and meditation, which were a little bit a part of my life that became like a tool for me and helped kind of support me during some of those darker moments.

And then I started to veer into more nontraditional modalities and working with different healers, working with some coaches going on retreats, and working with psychedelics. And somebody had shared with me a TED talk about breath, and I thought it was so beautiful, and it wasn’t about breathwork, typically, but just about breath and spirit and this kind of universal energy, and that gentleman, Christian Delaware, was hosting a breathwork session in Denver. I was like, oh, that sounds lovely. I didn’t understand what it was, I thought maybe it was more like yogic breathing or pranayama. And sounded like it would be some beautiful self-care. So I signed up and ended up being surprised by the experience, it was a room of maybe 60 to 70 people. But having such a profound journey myself that evening, that for the first time and all of that healing and all of that learning about myself, like I was able to get out of my mind and more into my body, I was able to not be overanalyzing and overthinking and struggling with forgiveness and struggling with letting go of guilt and shame. And finally, just like accessing true compassion and true love in my heart, which then brought me one step closer to forgiveness, which I was so desperately searching for at that point. And so, after that first session, I was like, wow, I knew more of this.

This is, of all the things I’ve done, this feels like the most important tool that I’ve found, and I’m resonating the most with this rather than any other modality. And some of those other modalities are still very much a part of my life. You know, I’ve got a very good toolbox but breathwork has been the constant since I found it. Now, I also knew after that first time that I wanted to be able to share it with as many people as possible because I was like, This is amazing. How come I’ve never heard of this before? I want more people to hear about it, learn about it, experience it, and start bringing all my friends and family and even my ex-husband to my teacher to experience it for themselves and start an apprenticeship shortly after that.

Lauren Hodge

That’s incredible. I love that because so many people you know have tried these different other modalities too but like knowing that breathwork is what kind of brought you back Um, to your center. And what most resonated with you is, is really kind of profound, I think, when you say when you first learned breathwork, or that that workshop that you went to is 60 people was what type of breathwork was that?

Claudia Amarsi

So it’s the style that I know that I know facilitators, book conscious breathwork, which, you know, there are a handful of these deeper styles. Now, most of them have either come from the lineage of rebirthing style or the Holotropic style. And I think most people recognize Holotropic, that, for whatever reason, has the most kind of brand awareness or name recognition, but even those two lineages where the two founders knew each other, they certainly were influenced by one another, I consider them cousins. And so most of these deeper styles have evolved from either one of those two, this one evolved from the rebirthing, as I was saying, but they’ll get you basically to the same place, it’s a beautiful way of breathing on your own, it’s you and your breath, of course, you’re working with a facilitator or a guide to learn the technique and, and have somebody hold space for you, that’s oftentimes pretty important for people.

But breathing in a certain way starts to move through emotions, to move through energies, and to start to access an altered state of consciousness. And being able to access that, that different space, a different part of the mind of the Spirit, is a place where people find a lot of healing, you know, they’re able to kind of get out of their everyday thinking mind, they’re able to kind of separate from the ego for a little while, and get a better understanding of themselves to start to better understand their patterns, start to better understand their triggers, understand their limiting beliefs, start to explore and see where they’re holding on to unprocessed emotions or perhaps some trauma, or perhaps some conditioning from their upbringing. You know, at a bare minimum, I tell people that when you’re moving energy, and we’re for sure gonna move through some stress and anxiety, and everybody has that. I think that’s a universal benefit that everybody appreciates. The past is kind of like the bare minimum. So yeah, if people come in and get their foot in the door, just looking for relief, they’re awesome, because then we can do so much more than that. Yeah. And

Lauren Hodge

I liked how you differentiated between the reversing and the Holotropic breathwork because I was not sure of these different modalities. But I know for sure, whenever I sat in your circle in your ceremony that I had this altered state of consciousness there, I didn’t realize there were actually other modalities that were kind of different. But so create that altered state of consciousness started, like breathwork like learning how to do breathwork. In 2013 Wim Hof, he had a workshop in Australia and it was the Holotropic breathwork days breath, work, and plunging, which is great. And I feel like I’ve kind of dabbled, I’ve dabbled since then.

Claudia Amarsi

He called it Wim Hof. He’s branded it his own, but it’s based on a Tibetan practice that’s 1000s of years old, called cobra. And so he took that original practice and modified it and put it on spin on it and incorporated being able to sit in extreme situations such as ice bath or cold water or hiking at high altitude, in poor weather. So that’s his, his spin on things. And I love it when he’s doing it because he’s bringing a lot of attention to breathwork. But he’s more focused on the kind of physical benefits and more on the biohacking bio optimization that’s available with breathwork. And I love that I find that there are benefits available physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. And I feel like he plays more in the physical and mental world. Well, I tend to play more and like the emotional and spiritual. But again, you can get benefits across the board, regardless of the technique you use, it kind of just depends on you and where you’re trying to go with it.

Kendra Till

So it sounds like obviously, breathwork has been around for a very, very long time. And I’m curious, are you able to dive a little bit deeper into the origins and the history of breathwork in particular, the style that you practice?

Claudia Amarsi

Yeah, I mean, breathwork is a generic term for any time you are being intentional with your breath. So there are elements of yoga or Qigong or tai chi, which are 1000s of years old. And I find that more of those techniques tend to be a little bit more meditative is a way of active meditation using breath, they each have their benefits for sure there are practices you can do for a few minutes that will relax you or that will provide clarity, or perhaps bring you a little bit of energy. And then these deeper styles, or at least the styles that have evolved from either Holotropic or rebirthing. That rebirthing was developed I believe in the late 60s in California and Holotropic was developed in the 70s in California and again, those to be pulled are the two groups that knew each other.

So I know, you know, it’s in my understanding that they’ve influenced one another and then they kind of went their ways. And then now other styles have trained under the lineages. And then similar to Wim Hof made it their own, rebranded it added in their kind of philosophy and technique, but from those deeper styles, as I said earlier, it’s all about just accessing a different part of yourself getting more into the witness mindset and observing your thoughts, observing your body, observing the emotions, rather than just getting swept up into them, like we tend to do.

Lauren Hodge

You mentioned Yeah, kind of sorry. You go. Okay, go ahead. Are you interested in

Kendra Till

When I was at this beginning journey for myself with breathwork and different techniques, and just feeling so novice and not really knowing and I just remember that first experience and it was similar to Lauren’s you know, I did the breath work and in the, in the cold, cold therapy, cold plunge. But it was just truly that out-of-body experience that it’s like a detachment, but also an attachment at the same time. It’s really quite bizarre. But I remember the clarity that I got, as Lauren mentioned, the calm and the piece, you know, I resonate with that as well. And I just, I remember at that embryonic stage, thinking, wow, this is so profoundly impactful. And, but also, I will admit that I feel like I’ve kind of gone off the train a little bit in terms of just going down deeper paths into it. So, I guess I’m also curious about that, how does breathwork impact our mental emotional, and physical states?

Claudia Amarsi

Yeah, it’s interesting. So I always let people know when they come to work with me that they do their best to let go of any expectations or attachments, especially if you’ve done it before because you had some type of experience that you want to recreate or reconnect with. Because it’s different for everybody. And it’s also different every time you do it. So if you have done it before, I can almost guarantee that your next experience is going to feel pretty significantly different. And for some people, it shows up more physical, like the energy or the emotions or moving in the sense of movement, or muscle contraction, or sensations in the body, maybe some trembling, maybe some vibrating, maybe sensations in terms of temperature, or feeling heavy or light, while somebody else might have more of an emotional experience where that energy is coming through as either tears or laughter or even yelling.

Or somebody else might have what feels like a total out-of-body experience. And they have zero awareness of what’s happening in the room because they’re just so deep in this beautiful trance. And somebody else might come in with a super-activated nervous system. And what they need is just like a deep reset, and so they get a beautiful 45 to 55 minutes of bliss and euphoria. And like one’s not better than the other. They’re all super valuable and intend to provide people with a lot of insights, and a lot of nourishment. And then I’d say, and then come back, because the next time is gonna be different.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, is there I’m curious about what Okay, so one time, I think whenever I did your workshop, I got like, the crab hands, I don’t know what they’re called. But like the crab hands? And is that like a blog emotionally? Or is that just like a Physiol? physiological thing? Or what is it called?

Claudia Amarsi

It’s called …, and why it happens to about a third of people who practice these deeper styles. And there are a lot of theories as to why it might happen. You know, some people think it’s a, perhaps an imbalance in certain minerals in the body. It’s an imbalance of oxygen or carbon dioxide. There are a few things that I advise people when that does happen. And usually, if it happens to somebody, it just happens the first few times, and it gets better and better until it goes away. I was one of the people who used to get it in the beginning and my arms would lock up and my hands would be up above my head like wild. It’s I always tell people that you have to trust it and know that it’s a very normal part of the process. I advise people to check in with their breath because there are certain patterns are there certain ways of breathing that can almost guarantee that you experienced technique, and that’s when we’re talking about their CO2 levels being off.

But then also and this happens, probably more than the co2 situation is checking with emotion because I’ve seen it 1000 times. There’s not a scientific explanation for this, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it’ll be visible to me that somebody has an emotion that’s ready to move, either, you know, their chest is flushed or their lips are quivering. Or even, maybe they already have some fears starting to form before whatever reason in the moment, they’re not quite able to access that emotion and express it and it shows up like, like control, or like the inability to let go, or the inability to surrender that shows up is this contraction, the muscles, and then when they can tap into the emotion and express it they’ll be so locked up. And from one breath to the next. It’s just pure release and relaxation and calm. And like as that emotion is moving through, like, and it’s stunning to witness. And again, there’s no scientific explanation for that. But I’ve seen it too many times to doubt that that’s what’s happening.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, and that is incredible. Are there I mean, that’s, that was my, like, initial experience with that. And then I’ve done some breathwork things here. And in Charleston, I’m actually in Maine right now, but in Charleston, and like, you know, it was different, but I was nervous. I was like, am I gonna get it sometimes I also get this agitated. I mean, I think the agitation is part of it. But I get resistant to doing breath work because of the agitation to noise. Like I have to be willing to surrender this agitation that you feel for a little bit while you’re moving into it.

Kendra Till

Yeah, that’s going to be a question I was going to ask, how would you guide like, what tips would you provide somebody who might feel a little bit of hesitation?

Claudia Amarsi

Yeah, because these things sound weird, right? Like this might turn somebody off, like, I don’t want my hands to lock up, I don’t want this patient.

Lauren Hodge

Feeling afterward, it’s so moving. And it’s like this surrendering of us, like

Claudia Amarsi

100%. And I try to, you know, when people come to work with me, I do a very thorough introduction, or people were just talking about it before somebody if they’re questioning whether or not to come to my brother’s like, these will be things that we talked about, and things that I tried to address that like, sometimes breathwork can feel edgy, for sure, like it might push you past your comfort zone. But I promise you that there’s so much beauty and exploring that space, and you are in control with breathwork.

You know, if you decide it’s feeling too much you can back off, you can slow down the pattern, you can take a break, and then when you feel ready, you come back to it. And my invitation is always to people like me but try one more breath. What would happen with one more breath? Like, is that an edge? Is that somewhere that you feel like you need to stop? Or is it the ego, perhaps just wanting to play it safe? Or not wanting to explore some of these depths within you that will be quite beautiful to explore, but sometimes take a little bit of courage. Yeah,

Lauren Hodge

it’s like reminding yourself, you are going to survive this. And on the other end of it. There. Yeah. An amazing kind of experience of feeling and release that you can feel. Yeah, I like I have

Claudia Amarsi

I know, something good is gonna happen once the technique starts kicking in. And I’m like, I’m so glad you feel that way. Not everybody feels that way.

Lauren Hodge

That is so true. And that was exactly so I should mention, like, after I had that experience, once I like, you know, was able to kind of surrender to that it did release, and it like I did have that like, sense of calm and peace and all of that afterward. I just got these things. So interesting. So I’m like, I wonder if I knew that time, I would have had all these blocks around like, you know, living in isolation, and COVID and all of these things going on. So I can only imagine what was going on, like emotionally or what was being processed emotionally.

Claudia Amarsi

So yeah, I love to share with people what we’re doing with these practices. It’s a somatic practice. So we’re getting in the body and we’re understanding where we’re just having an opportunity to let go of something or to hit to release or to move through blockages. I love the expression, our issues live in our tissues. You know, we’re using breathwork to find where these issues are potentially living and breathing them through. We’re using the breath as a vehicle for energy bringing new energy in and letting cold energy go.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, and it feels so good afterward.

Kendra Till

For a lot of people that might potentially be because of physical pain or is more from an emotional mental standpoint.

Claudia Amarsi

I would say most people come for emotional thinking, but it’s beautiful. When I see physical healings occur they are kind of unexpected. You know, somebody comes in because they’re working through something from their past and, maybe they’ve done a lot of therapy and breathwork is a really beautiful compliment to therapy. For example, I’m thinking of this one woman who came in just working through a lot of personal issues, a lot of emotional stuff, had significant back pain in her lower back, had hydrocortisone shots, had physical therapy, and almost kind of resigned.

The fact that she was going to just have to live with his lower back pain, didn’t think, when she came to breathwork had a big experience, and realized that she had been holding on to something in regards to the relationship with her mother moved through a place of like deep forgiveness and acceptance and felt a pop in her back and realize that like there was an emotional component to that pain like that, that it was a contraction based on this old emotional energy that she just been holding tightly into her body. And afterward, she stood up and she’s like, My back doesn’t hurt anymore. This is amazing. And it’s fascinating to see when things like that happen.

Kendra Till

That is fascinating.

In Shake It Off Episode 19 Lauren speaks with special guest Lisa Jacobson LPC, the founder of Present Life Counseling.

Lisa is a licensed therapist in Georgia and her practice provides plant medicine preparation and integration therapy. She also has a Master’s in Humanistic/Transpersonal Psychology from the University of West Georgia and she’s also a Registered Yoga Teacher, trained in Emotional Freedom Technique, and a Certified Integral Therapist (the first in GA!).

Lauren talks with Lisa all about her journey to becoming a plant medicine prep and integration therapist, how her practice focuses on supporting clients to follow their truth and communicate their needs and boundaries and integrate their plant medicine experiences.

You can find all the podcast episodes at https://www.drlaurenhodge.com/podcast/

We created this podcast to give you the tools, strategies, and stories to handle the unexpected BS that life throws your way. We plant ourselves firmly at the gates of truth-telling and we discuss how to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.

If you like what you hear, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify and Apple Podcast and tell us what part you liked most.

*This is not medical advice. Please get in touch with your doctor or healthcare practitioner before making any changes to your healthcare plan.*

Listen to the Episode

Listen to the Podcast on Spotify >>

Read The Transcript

Lauren Hodge

Hi everyone, and welcome back to shake it off. I’m honored to have Lisa Jacobson on the podcast today. Lisa is a licensed therapist in Georgia and her practice, present life counseling, provides plant medicine preparation and integration therapy, among other types of support that we’ll hear about today. Lisa has a master’s in humanistic transpersonal psychology from the University of Western Georgia, and she is a registered yoga teacher. She’s trained in emotional freedom technique, and recently certified as an integral therapist.

Her practice focuses on supporting clients to follow their truth and communicate their needs and boundaries and integrate and prepare for their plant medicine experiences. These are areas that I’m deeply interested in. And I know there will be a lot of listeners also interested in knowing more about Lisa’s journey to becoming a plant medicine preparation and integration therapist, and she has practiced as a therapist for 10 years. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us. I would love to hear about your journey with becoming a therapist. And I’m curious what motivated you to become a therapist?

Lisa Jacobson

Thank you for having me, Lauren. It’s not really an easy answer. It’s a very complex answer. So I’ll give you the whole answer that motivated me to become a therapist. Well, when I was growing up I’ve always been a sensitive person. And when I was growing up, there really wasn’t language for that. But I was aware of things that maybe not everybody was aware of, I felt my emotions very deeply in a family where no one seemed to meet emotion in the same way I did, unless I had a grandmother that was diagnosed bipolar and had depression. Although I never saw her depressed. She didn’t cry, she wasn’t the type in the bed, like she was always happy. So it was kind of like I grew up in this paradox. Like I had big feelings. I saw someone that was diagnosed with something that really didn’t seem to line up. I had this big spiritual world. That was that I was kind of aware of as a kid, too. So spirituality was always intriguing to me. I’ve just kind of been a deep thinker. So psychology just really interested me.

I attempted to major in Psych 101, at the University of Georgia, and I could not pass it because that’s not the psychology that I knew in my heart. What I have come to know that I’d love is adult development, higher levels of development, which we really don’t talk about, I love to talk about subtle body awareness things which we also really don’t talk about. Which makes sense why a clinical psychology track wasn’t working for me. So I got my bachelor’s degree in Child and Family Development. That’s what I ended up switching to since I couldn’t pass psychology. And that was just perfect, because I love that I like to see how things unfold. I believe in the evolution of things. I believe in generational trauma, generational healing, all the patterns of families and all of that, so development seemed to really fit. When I decided to go back to grad school, I had found Naropa Institute in Boulder and California Institute of integral studies in California. But this was 1999, and I was young in my 20s.

I didn’t have the funds for private education, and found this program in West Georgia, which I had never even heard of, even though I had grown up in Georgia my whole life. And so I came here and it’s exactly what I was looking for. We discussed Buddhist psychology, which just blew my mind with a different way of thinking and awareness practices that I think are key for mental health, which a lot of counselors still don’t even talk about. We talked a lot about mind-body psychology and other cultures and the impact of cultural trauma, and the things that I really love that feed my soul but are so fascinating to me.

Lauren Hodge

I was just curious, did you know that the program would have all of those things all of the mind body connection pieces?

Lisa Jacobson

Yes, and that is why I went at the time I went for a master’s in psychology. So I’m 23 years old at this time, I was not thinking about the future, I was just thinking, Okay, I have an undergraduate degree, and I’m not making enough money here, I should probably go back to school, you know, get some more student loans in that generation, you know, let’s go back to school. And so it interested me, which is why I went, I didn’t do my private classes to be a counselor during that program. I did, however, I did do my practicum during that program, because I’m an experiential learner. So I just chose a practicum because I learned so much better that way, rather than just being in lectures all the time.

Thank goodness, I did a practicum because it’s required as part of your degree program now, which they don’t offer anymore at West Georgia in psychology they offer counseling, but not in psychology. So I feel so lucky that I had it. So after graduating with my masters, I went back maybe a year later to do classes in the counseling department. I think I had four classes left for the licensure requirements, and went ahead and took those classes. And yeah, I worked in an inpatient psych unit for about seven months before I realized the mainstream health care, psychology, mental health is not my place. And didn’t do counseling for a while. I taught yoga when I was in grad school, I got my yoga certification, too. So I taught yoga and opened a few restaurants and did something and taught and then not taught but parented, parenting is very important and intentional to me. And so I did that when my kids were young. And then after getting divorced, went back to take my licensing exam, got my supervision. And then after getting my supervision opened my private practice.

Lauren Hodge

Wow, I really appreciate that journey of, you know, starting with, it really sounds like even at 20 to 23, new yourself well on how to know, you know that you’re interested in Buddhism and mind body connection, and that sort of thing. And then that you allowed yourself to kind of go on that journey of opening restaurants, parenting, of doing all of that, to come back around in yoga, teacher training, because all like the yoga teacher training, all of these things are important. I think you can tell me they are important for preparation and integration therapy. Part of that is like that mind-body connection. So it’s interesting how all these pieces weave together to become who you are now.

Lisa Jacobson

Absolutely. Well, and then as far as another piece to that, which I mean, I’m fine to say, I grew up in South Georgia. So in a small town, there’s not a lot to do, obviously. So the kind of trouble you get in sometimes is going to a cow pasture and picking mushrooms and eating them. So I was never afraid of that. Yeah, like so. And when I think so I’m 45. Now, when I think back on my life, and like my early adulthood, I didn’t plan any of that, like I didn’t even seek out Buddhism or yoga, like all of these things just kind of folded into my life when I was in my early adulthood. So it just naturally integrated into my life. And I think I’m just realizing at 45 that that wasn’t the case for everybody. Because it wasn’t planned.

Lauren Hodge

Right? It was like a flow of things. It was just all worked out and which you gravitate towards.

Lisa Jacobson

And what I gravitated towards.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, that’s incredible. So I’m curious then, when it comes to now practicing as a licensed therapist and doing the plant medicine, integration and preparation, what does that kind of look like for you? What does your normal day look like when you’re providing that type of therapy?

Lisa Jacobson

Well, I will say that it’s not the biggest part of my practice, just because of where we are right now in terms of legal status. And in the country. There’s not too many people that seek out preparation and integration for plant medicine. But it’s not really that different than the kind of therapy I’ve practice because I practice integration therapy and its integration of all of our different layers of body all of our different layers of experience, all of our different layers of consciousness and with awareness, practice being something that I’ve always had in my toolbox.

I know that a lot of times it’s about increasing perspective, it’s not about changing how we feel. It’s about making room for how we feel and just increasing perspective being big enough to hold it. And so in that way, whether it’s through plant medicine, or whether it’s someone even using pharmaceuticals or breathwork, or yoga or meditation, to me, it’s all integration and plant medicine is a different doorway in, but it’s like anything else. It’s not a light switch, it’s not going to change. It’s going to be the practice and how do we integrate it? And that, to me, is everything. How we integrate everything is kind of what we’re doing.

Lauren Hodge

That’s such an important point. That even if it’s plant medicine, that’s not the silver bullet. It’s your practices, your there’s not a silver bullet that information that matters.

Lisa Jacobson

Yeah, because there’s not one, there are 10. But then what we do with that is what matters. Yeah. And that’s a skill, really, and that’s a skill that, in my opinion, many of us were not modeled on, that we’re just to a point and maybe evolution and cultural evolution, I don’t know where, as a generation, we’re doing that. And so we don’t have a model for it. But we there’s a lot of people doing it.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, and interested in that work. Do you mean there are a lot of people that are now starting to work in that space of integration, you think?

Lisa Jacobson

Right, and just self inquiry and wanting to, you know, expand awareness? And how do you hold everything you’re aware of? Because the reality is, if, if you’re aware, you’re going to experience anxiety and depression at times. And if you’re, if you’re ignorant, you’re probably not like if you’re, if you’re denial games are pretty good, or you’re pretty good at Stepping Out, or you’re just a very simple thinker that doesn’t question things. You might not experience anxiety and depression, but if you have awareness, you will and that’s not mental illness, it’s something else. It’s just something we experience when we are aware and awake.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah. And it’s like how do you what do you do that? And what do you do with that? Yeah, that’s really interesting. I like that way of thinking about integration and therapy work in general. Would you say as far as the king of the labor market goes when it comes to integration and preparation therapy that given that we haven’t yet got to the point of, you know, having FDA approval for MDMA for PTSD or psilocybin for depression and PTSD and that sort of thing? There’s the approval for for ketamine therapy, but that’s been around for a while, too. What are your thoughts on the the labor market? Do you think it’s a growing space where there will be a need for this, like to practice on track?

Lisa Jacobson

Absolutely.

Lauren Hodge

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, I’m just curious.

Lisa Jacobson

No, and in fact, I tell people a lot. They’re like, I want to be in counseling. But I don’t know, I’m like, There’s only going to be an increased need for counselors as we become more and more aware of the complexities. As we’re shifting, something’s happening in our culture, we’re shifting and last few years, I think things are changing, there’s going to be more and more counselors, and specially with plant medicine work, it’s so important, because it’s not the silver bullet, and some people think it is. And so right now, there are a lot of options. The only options for people are to go to someone that’s not a licensed therapist, and have an experience where someone will sit with them or to go even out of country to to go to a retreat and have an experience. And that to me just feels not complete, because the integration piece is so important. It’s really the most important part to me.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, I completely agree. I know, in the plant medicine experiences that I’ve had, like, that’s been the thing that’s brought it all together, and it’s the one time I didn’t have integration. You know, it was the time where I didn’t get as much from it as I did. I didn’t take the practices and do anything different basically, with my life based on the information that I received during the ceremony. So I can relate to that. So I’m thinking about legal and ethical issues. I mean, we know like we’re saying like the FDA hasn’t approved MDMA and psilocybin yet. Do you think there are other kinds of ethical and legal issues that you have to consider on a day to day basis as far as plant medicine or just therapy in general.

Lisa Jacobson

Well, always ethical issues to think about if you’re a therapist, for sure. Main one is just do no harm, you know, so A, I would never, ever suggest plant medicine or psychedelics to someone that that I thought was that had a personality disorder or, or a psychotic kind of tendency, first of all, and because of the legal issues, I don’t recommend it much anyway, I wait for people to bring it up to me. But yes, I don’t, because I have a self-pay practice right now, and it is a lot about personal growth, I don’t tend to have, I tend to have people that just like, they’re seekers, they want to seek truth, you know, they’re just interested in that.

So I generally don’t deal with people that have a bonafide mental illness or a psychotic disorder personality. So, but yeah, there’s always ethical issues. And I’m really big. I’m also a norm practitioner, which is the neuroaffective relational model dealing with complex trauma. And so I’m really big on clients, having their agency. I’m not going to tell a client what’s best for them. I don’t think they’re the patient and I’m the doctor. That’s not how I view it, and that’s an ethical thing to me to not make anybody think there’s another person that knows better about them than they do.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, you’re on the same playing field as them. And you’re kind of walking through this journey alongside them.

Lisa Jacobson

To help them reconnect to themselves really.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, that’s so important. So it’s kind of like connecting to your intuition, I imagine.

Lisa Jacobson

Yeah, because I think when we have experiences in childhood, or maybe they’re learned, whatever it is, and we build these adaptive roles, these survival roles, and then that’s what we’re living in. We’re not being authentic. And I like to help people, like, uncover and shed those in order to live more authentically.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, so whenever I’m thinking about just therapy work in general and plant medicine work, I often think about the importance of respecting cultural traditions of the places where plant medicine comes from, but also for just thinking about cultural traditions of clients. How does understanding and respecting multiculturalism help you or support you as a counselor?

Lisa Jacobson

I think it’s imperative, I don’t know what a counselor can do without taking culture into effect. And that is also something that, and that has to do with perspective, like, we all have to realize that we see through the filter of our culture, and that anybody that comes through us, it’s going to be seen through the filter of their culture. And we have to honor that and respect that because it’s a, it’s a huge lens that they’re seeing through and so don’t just just think everyone has the same culture as we do, or to not be, you know, sensitive to that, I think is unethical for a counselor to do.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, definitely. So, one question I am always interested in asking is about your personal, like self care practices. And, you know, when you’re, if you had to choose like one or two self care practices, when you’re in your highest state of stress, or maybe even just day to day, what do you do? What’s your go to?

Lisa Jacobson

I feel almost lucky that about seven years ago, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And so that made me have to monitor my stress on a daily level, like it’s a lifestyle thing for me and to the point where it’s also integrated into my life. I have a client that I can manage. I’m not a counselor that can see eight clients in a day. I have a regular yoga practice, I make sure I get eight hours of sleep, and make sure that I get at least 30 minutes of walking, you know, in a day or something. I just have little things now that are built in that are my, they’re my cornerstones and what helped keep me grounded for sure. But then I’m also a fan of just, you know, crying when I’m mad, or crying when I’m sad. And when I’m mad, I release that in a healthy way. I just allow it all and I let it move and I just try not to let things build up.

Lauren Hodge

Yes, I like that. I like having a form of being able to release the build up of things or the things daily so they don’t…

Lisa Jacobson

Right and I recognize the privilege I have in creating this lifestyle. Okay, this is the hours I want to work and how many you know how many people I can see and that it’s work and I recognize that not everybody has that and I feel very grateful for that.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, I think that’s also, you know, says a lot about, like the work that you’ve had to put into being able to be able to do that too. And to be intentional about, like, how you’re spending your time, that sort of thing. Because I know that that’s not always easy to do, like, you know, to be able to say yes to certain things and know that, like you’re fitting in time for yourself. So important.

Where can our audience find you, I know you have presentlifecounseling.com is your website. Your Instagram is interval_LPC and then Facebook is Lisa Jacobson. LPC.

Lisa Jacobson

Yes.

Lauren Hodge

Excellent. Well, we will put that in the show notes and make sure that everyone knows where to follow you and to get more information on the services you provide.

In Shake It Off Episode 17 Lauren and Kendra speak with special guest Rachel Kelly, the founder and CEO of Rachel Kelly Coaching.

Rachel’s coaching business specializes in emotional wellness, trauma processing, nervous system healing, inner child work, assertive communication, and self-love. She helps those struggling with anxiety to create internal safety in their bodies so they feel safe to expand and create the life they desire.
Lauren and Kendra talk with Rachel all about her transition from a therapist to starting her own healing coaching business. They dive deep into the intricacies of emotional healing, anxious attachment styles, and the healing process for the nervous system.

You can find all the podcast episodes at https://www.drlaurenhodge.com/podcast/

We created this podcast to give you the tools, strategies, and stories to handle the unexpected BS that life throws your way. We plant ourselves firmly at the gates of truth-telling and we discuss how to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.
If you like what you hear, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify and Apple Podcast and tell us what part you liked most.

*This is not medical advice. Please get in touch with your doctor or healthcare practitioner before making any changes to your healthcare plan.*

Listen to the Episode

Listen to the Podcast on Spotify >>

Read The Transcript

Lauren Hodge
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Shake It Off. Kendra and I are speaking with Rachel Kelly today. Rachel is a therapist with a master’s degree in clinical social work. For eight years, Rachel worked as a therapist before deciding to start her own healing coaching business. Her coaching business specializes in emotional wellness, trauma processing, nervous system healing, inner child work, and effective communication and self-love. Rachel helps those struggling with anxiety to create internal safety in their bodies so they can feel safe to expand and create the life they desire. She also hosts her own podcast called “Feel It to Heal It,” which I was listening to today and found a lot of valuable insights. We’re thrilled to have you here with us today, Rachel, and excited to discuss the incredible work you’re doing.

Rachel Kelly

Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here.

Kendra Till

Thanks, Rachel. Could you share with us how your own healing journey inspired you to start your own business?

Rachel Kelly

Yeah, absolutely. So my journey and my work are deeply intertwined. I’ve been on a healing journey for as long as I can remember. Therapy has been a part of my life since childhood, as both my parents were therapists and met in social work school. It runs in the family. Even when I entered the traditional therapy field, I continued attending therapy myself. However, everything changed when I discovered the world of online coaching. I found a mentor who has taught me everything I know about the work I do today. Combined with my clinical training as a therapist, this experience propelled me into an unexpected and thrilling adventure of starting my own business.

When I met my mentor, it was only three weeks after launching my business, and the timing was incredibly aligned. This encounter prompted me to focus on my own deep healing journey. I began working on processing my childhood trauma, rewiring my nervous system, and cultivating secure attachment while addressing anxious attachment patterns. These personal transformations significantly influenced the way I worked with my clients. Previously, I relied on traditional therapy methods, such as talk therapy, goal-setting, and teaching coping skills—those conventional approaches you typically associate with therapy. However, my deeper self-work, which involved somatic processing and exploring the subtle energy driving our behavior, completely shifted my perspective.

I realized the immense benefits I was experiencing—feeling safer in my body, reduced anxiety, and a stronger connection to my authentic self. The healing methodology developed by my mentor was truly remarkable. I quickly recognized the potential it held for my clients. Incorporating this approach became an immediate priority for me. Witnessing the rapid progress my clients made was foundational to the growth of my business. The modality became an integral part of my practice, allowing me to define the kind of clients I wanted to work with and the offers I wanted to create.

Essentially, my entire business was born from my own personal healing journey. I wanted to extend and share the gift of healing with others. It has been a continuous cycle of growth and gratitude, as each step of my journey has unfolded new opportunities and blessings.

Lauren Hodge

That’s incredible, and it’s fascinating how you transitioned from talk therapy to somatic work. I’ve personally had experiences with both approaches, and like you, I’ve found that somatic work resonates better with me. While I believe both are essential in my healing journey, the somatic approach has become my go-to method for navigating difficult situations, whether they arise in relationships or at work. It’s truly been transformative for me, and I can genuinely appreciate the power of this modality.

I noticed that you specialize in anxious attachment and I’m interested in learning more about your upcoming course, the Secure Entrepreneur. By the way, speaking of experiences, I remember Kendra and I once took an Anxious Attachment quiz together. Just yesterday, I started working at a co-working space, and it’s about a 25-minute walk from my home. I chose it specifically because it allows me to be outdoors and around other people. Currently, I’m in my home office because there isn’t a soundproof room available for recording. So, after this conversation, I’ll be walking back. It’s a learning process, but I’m realizing I need to adjust my attire for the office and then de-layer for the walk back, considering the temperature can rise here in Charleston. By the way, where are you located right now?

Rachel Kelly

Where are you? You said Tulsa?

Lauren Hodge

Charleston.

Rachel Kelly

Oh, Charleston. I’m in San Diego. So it’s, it’s actually kinda hot here today.

Lauren Hodge

That’s nice. Kendra and I were discussing your work on attachment styles. We’ve both taken attachment style quizzes in the past. In fact, Kendra recently took the quiz to determine her own attachment style. So, Kendra, what was your result? I’m curious to know.

Kendra Till

I was secure, secure attachment.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me at all. You’ve always been level-headed and easygoing in your relationships. You create an environment where others can grow and explore, which makes perfect sense to me. As for my own experience with the attachment style quiz, I remember taking it for the first time about four years ago. At the time, I struggled with hot-and-cold patterns in relationships. Everything would be going wonderfully, exceeding my expectations, and then suddenly, it would escalate into an explosive and unhealthy experience. I reached a point where I realized I needed to address this issue.

I recall a specific incident when I was dating a guy in New York while living in Australia. We hadn’t yet defined the relationship, and I hadn’t fully understood how to communicate my needs or establish feelings of safety and security. One night, we went out to a club in Brooklyn with his friend and his friend’s girlfriend. In my anxiously attached state, I perceived him as flirting with his friend’s girlfriend, who happened to be significantly younger. I pulled him aside, while we were at this amazing club I had been eager to visit, and I confronted him about his behavior. Looking back, I realize that my approach was not okay. He decided to leave, and as I was staying with him in New York, I impulsively insisted on leaving as well. I hastily packed my belongings, snuck out the back door with my backpack, and hailed a taxi to the airport. That incident marked the end of our connection. It left me wondering why I had reacted so strongly when he seemed to embody everything I desired in a relationship.

This experience initiated a journey of self-reflection, during which I delved into understanding the underlying causes of my reactions and identifying my own role in the situation. It was a process of uncovering and addressing my attachment style, which I had been projecting onto others due to my lack of self-awareness. Since then, I have participated in courses focused on attachment styles, but I acknowledge that certain triggers can still arise. I experience moments of jealousy and other emotions, but now I am more aware of them and understand what is happening within me when they occur.

So, in working with a client who exhibits anxious attachment tendencies, my goal would be to support them in not becoming overly anxious when their partner creates space or pulls away. Although I have personally transitioned to a more secure attachment style, I recognize that certain triggers can still be present. The key is to foster self-awareness and assist the client in understanding their own attachment patterns and reactions. By providing a safe and non-judgmental space, I would encourage open communication, exploration of their emotions, and the development of healthy coping mechanisms. It’s essential to empower them to identify their needs and communicate them effectively to their partner. Ultimately, the aim is to help them cultivate a sense of security within themselves, enabling them to navigate relationships with greater ease and resilience.

Rachel Kelly

Yeah, so first of all, thank you for sharing that, because it’s totally relatable. I have so many stories like that, where my anxious attachment got very activated and projected, behaved in a way that my highest self was…

Lauren Hodge

You’re like what’s happening. Yeah.

Rachel Kelly

And actually, it was my own experiences of being triggered in relationships that led me to dive into this healing work. After a breakup, I realized that there were some deep wounds that needed to be addressed. Romantic relationships have a way of bringing all of that to the surface. So the first crucial step, as you mentioned, is awareness. We aren’t typically educated about attachment styles and the fact that we all have different percentages of each style. It’s important to understand that as humans, we possess a blend of attachment styles, and our goal is to move closer to secure attachment.

Becoming aware of our triggers, whether they occur in relationships, friendships, or other aspects of life, is key. When we experience a trigger, it’s important to recognize that it’s our inner child reacting. Inner child work is something I came across during my time in grad school and therapy, but it wasn’t emphasized as much as it should have been. Our nervous systems are wired in childhood, so if we don’t address the root of that wiring, we miss a crucial piece of the puzzle. That reactive inner child is feeling threatened, scared, and uncertain about having their needs met. Whatever triggered the response from our partner is reminiscent of a time when we felt helpless as children, dependent on our caregivers for survival.

The next step is to orient our bodies back to safety in the present moment. This begins with awareness. When we realize our inner child is scared, we can ask ourselves, “What would a scared child need?” They would need comfort, validation, reassurance, and a sense of safety. By showing that care to our inner child, we can help regulate our nervous system. It’s important to recognize that our nervous system and inner child are interconnected, and when the inner child is activated, our nervous system becomes dysregulated.

Instead of projecting our fears onto our partners or engaging in hurtful behaviors, we can take responsibility for our own healing. This may involve taking time alone, going for a walk, or communicating to our partner that we need a break. During this time, we can practice grounding techniques, breathing, and allowing ourselves to feel the fear. Understanding that we are simply feeling scared in that moment can be transformative. It’s important to recognize that our partners are not responsible for saving us or making it all better. We, as adults, have the responsibility to attend to ourselves, to learn how to regulate our own emotions, and to communicate our needs. While it’s okay to seek support and co-regulation as we learn, we must understand that ultimately it is our responsibility. So it’s kind of one of those both damn things.

Lauren Hodge

That’s such a good point. Going back to what you mentioned about your inner child, my anxious attachment stems from a deep fear of abandonment. I’ve had multiple father figures who either weren’t present or abandoned me in different ways. My biological father and my mom’s ex-husband, who would have been my stepdad, both contributed to this ongoing fear that the person I’m with might leave. I fear that if they’re upset or dissatisfied, they’ll just walk away. It’s a constant worry in relationships. However, as you mentioned, it’s a process of growth and healing.

Now I know that at the beginning of a relationship, it’s essential for me to clearly communicate my needs to feel safe. I value integrity, where a person’s words align with their actions. I also need validation, even if my partner will be away or busy for a week. It’s important for us to touch base at least once a day, even with a small gesture that shows they’re thinking about me or that they care in some way. Of course, not everyone will be able to meet those needs, and I’ve learned that sometimes I need to provide that validation for myself. I have post-it notes scattered everywhere as a reminder to validate myself instead of constantly seeking it from others. These strategies have been really helpful.

As you said, once we start learning ourselves and understanding our needs, we can effectively communicate them to our partners. It’s a journey that also involves reconnecting with our inner child and tending to their needs.

Kendra Till

Well, it sounds like you now have the tools in your toolkit to navigate this, as it can manifest at different spectrums. It can be an intense experience of anxious attachment. And as Rachel mentioned, having those tools that you can rely on and pull out of your backpack is crucial. It allows you to regulate yourself and understand what’s happening within you. But as you mentioned, Lauren, self-awareness is absolutely essential.

Lauren Hodge

You’re absolutely right, Rachel. It’s a learning process. Once you become aware of your attachment style, you can then explore what typically triggers that attachment style in others. Additionally, you can discover strategies to support yourself in returning to your emotional center.

Rachel Kelly

Absolutely, you’re spot on. Processing childhood pain is a significant aspect of this work. The deep fear of abandonment, which underlies insecure attachment, especially anxious attachment, requires us to address stored trauma and pain from our past. When clients share triggering experiences in their relationships, I guide them to connect with their bodies and identify where those feelings manifest physically. By delving deeper, we explore the familiarity of those sensations and trace them back to childhood experiences. While conscious recollection of all childhood memories may be challenging, our implicit memory retains those emotional imprints. Even if clients cannot pinpoint the exact origin, they can locate the feeling in their bodies. Through holding space for these emotions and allowing their release, clients can establish a present-moment connection free from historical wounds that become triggered. In essence, attachment and trauma healing enable us to feel safe in the present. To cultivate internal safety, we must address the stored pain that our bodies perceive as a threat. By acknowledging and embracing fear, sadness, and shame that stem from childhood, we can allow these emotions to flow through us, grounding ourselves in the present and relating from our adult selves rather than the inner child. It emphasizes the importance of creating a safe space to feel and process our emotions. This understanding reinforces the earlier point that coping skills alone cannot suffice if we do not feel secure enough to confront and embrace the triggered pain. Without establishing a sense of safety to fully experience our emotions, they will continue to resurface persistently. That’s why my podcast named Feel it to Heal it.

Kendra Till

Yeah, that’s so fascinating. Personally, I find myself in a space where I’m genuinely intrigued by your expertise in nervous system healing and the overall process. There are moments when I feel immensely overwhelmed, and my nervous system is undoubtedly in overdrive. For instance, at present, I’m working more than usual, and I’m fully aware of the necessary steps to make changes and establish healthy boundaries. However, despite this awareness, I find myself consumed by work, which becomes a challenge. What particularly stands out to me is the end of the day when I embark on a 45-minute drive home from work. During that time, I experience heightened anxiety, overwhelming feelings that can become so intense that I may need to pull over on the side of the road, as I recently shared with Lauren. In light of this, could you walk us through some strategies for healing the nervous system and shed some light on the overall process and what it entails?

Rachel Kelly

Yeah, definitely. So I mean, first of all, very common experience driving home probably stuck in traffic, you’re like, I just had this long day, I’m so tired.

Kendra Till

Yeah, I’ve been there too, feeling overwhelmed. I often find myself with a pile of text messages and emails that I haven’t had the chance to respond to because I dedicate a lot of my time to working directly with people. It leaves me with limited time to check in on my messages. So by the end of the day, when I know my partner will be home, it just adds to the overwhelm.

Rachel Kelly:

Yeah, absolutely. I have definitely been there, especially in New York traffic. It’s no joke; it’s actually one of the reasons I moved. So when it comes to healing the nervous system, the first part is processing that pain so that your nervous system feels safe in the present and can navigate through stressors. Another way to support your nervous system, especially during busier seasons, is to establish daily non-negotiable practices. These practices should not disconnect you from yourself. In the past, my practices would involve binge-watching TV or getting lost in work, which only numbed and distracted me. Instead, choose practices that support the nervous system, such as daily journaling, meditation, yoga, cold showers, chanting, or singing. These practices tone the vagus nerve. Personally, I commit to three habits every day: meditation, chanting, and journaling. You need to select practices that feel sustainable for you. For example, I love yoga, but I understand that there may be days when I can’t attend a class. So I don’t want to set myself up for failure by committing to daily yoga sessions. I meet myself where I’m at. Journaling every day, even if it’s a quick list or a brief reflection on my day and emotions, provides consistency for my nervous system.

The nervous system can be seen as having two parts: structure and flow. The structure is like the divine masculine energy, providing a foundation through daily habits. The flow represents the divine feminine energy, allowing flexibility. We don’t want a rigid, controlled nervous system that depends on specific practices to avoid feeling overwhelmed. Similarly, we don’t want a nervous system without structure or consistency, as it leads to feeling scattered. It’s about finding a balance—a container of daily habits that support your nervous system and allow you to connect with yourself. By practicing these habits consistently, you’ll gain more flexibility. Taking time to come home to yourself, breathe, and address any arising feelings will help you navigate the highs and lows of the day. I highly recommend establishing daily habits, even if you start with just one. For example, commit to three minutes of stillness and deep breathing every day or take a walk in nature to ground yourself and appreciate the surroundings. Your nervous system needs that consistency to build a sense of safety. If you don’t provide some anchor of stability, your nervous system will feel more burnt out and dysregulated.

Additionally, we often forget the power of our breath. For instance, when driving home in traffic and feeling stressed, you can place a hand on your heart or lap, take three long, deep breaths, and allow your nervous system to recognize that it’s safe. Sometimes we forget to breathe fully as we go through the day, rushing from one task to another in a sympathetic state. We treat every email or task as an emergency, creating unnecessary stress. By prioritizing self-care, we become better equipped to show up for our clients, businesses, and loved ones. If we constantly neglect ourselves and run on empty, we’ll become resentful, exhausted, and our nervous system will shut down, leaving us with no energy except to numb out through activities like watching TV or mindlessly scrolling through social media. Incorporating intentional deep breaths throughout the day, checking in with our bodies, staying hydrated, and nourished are essential ways to care for ourselves and lead our nervous system. By sending signals of safety to our bodies, we counter the constant chaos and trauma of the world. Providing anchors of safety throughout the day will reduce anxiety and help us feel grounded and present in the moment, allowing us to truly enjoy life.

Kendra Till

I love these tips, Rachel.

Lauren Hodge

I love routines too! Having a routine around journaling and gratitude is crucial for me. It helps me transition into the day and then transition out of my workday. I absolutely agree with all the suggestions you mentioned. Having an anchor at the end of the day is so important. Now, I have a question. I noticed that you have a Secure Entrepreneur Program and an Admins Healing Group coming up. Could you please share some information about where our audience can find details about these programs? And could you also provide a brief overview of what these programs entail?

Rachel Kelly

Yeah, absolutely. I’m really, really excited about this. It combines my two passions in life, which are healing anxious attachment and entrepreneurship, and helping people build their dream businesses. The course is called “The Secure Entrepreneur.” It specifically targets entrepreneurs who struggle with symptoms of anxious attachment. Now, keep in mind, we all have some degree of anxious attachment. So even if someone only experiences a certain percentage of it, this course can still be incredibly valuable. The concepts and teachings can be applied to anyone. However, it’s specifically designed for entrepreneurs who want to establish healthier boundaries, more structure, and greater consistency.

We work on releasing those protective mechanisms and trauma responses like people-pleasing, comparison, and perfectionism (oh my god, perfectionism!). It’s amazing how these traits can be so sneaky, as they are ingrained in our bodies as safety mechanisms. The course is for those who desire to relate to their businesses from a place of secure attachment and, most importantly, to feel the way they want to feel in their business. When we think about why we started our businesses as entrepreneurs, it’s about feeling free and having a lifestyle of freedom. It’s about getting paid to do what we love, serving the world with our unique gifts, magic, and medicine. We can’t fully achieve that if we’re constantly exhausted, burnt out, resentful, undercharging, and overworking. This program is all about fully embodying what we teach, walking the walk, and practicing what we preach, so we can authentically experience the way we want to feel in our businesses.

Lauren Hodge

Sounds like every entrepreneur could benefit from that. Can they find that on your website? Or is it Instagram?

Rachel Kelly

My instagram handle is at rachel_kelly_coaching. And the waitlist is in the link in my bio, and it’s going to open one week from today.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, absolutely. And what about your men’s healing group? Is that also coming up? Will it be available?

Rachel Kelly

Definitely. We are currently launching our men’s group called Real Men Heal, which I co-lead with Anna. It’s a three-month group coaching program that focuses on full nervous system transformation and deconditioning the societal expectations of what it means to be a “real man.” The program consists of nine modules covering topics such as nervous system healing, attachment theory, inner child work, abundance, power, and money. If you’re interested, the application for the program can be found in the link in my Instagram bio. And if you have any questions, my DMs are always open. I love connecting with the community and meeting new people on my page, so feel free to reach out and say hello.

In Shake It Off Episode 15 Jess Mulligan, who is the co-founder of Winged Women’s Wellness.

Jess is a toddler mom and co-foudner of a business that is rapidly taking off. Her supplements are in Whole Foods, Sprouts, Wegmens, and many other natural health shops, boutique markets and food stores.

Kendra and I talk with Jess all about her product line specifically formulated to support women with stress, sleep, mood, and skin and how it came to be. We hear about her journey with stress and how she copes when she’s juggling all the things.

You can find all the podcast episodes at https://www.drlaurenhodge.com/podcast/

We created this podcast to give you the tools, strategies, and stories to handle the unexpected BS that life throws your way. We plant ourselves firmly at the gates of truth-telling and we discuss how to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.

If you like what you hear, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify and Apple Podcast and tell us what part you liked most.

*This is not medical advice. Please contact your doctor or healthcare practitioner before making any changes to your healthcare plan.*

Listen to the Episode

Listen to the Podcast on Spotify >>

Read The Transcript

Kendra Till

Welcome to shake it off a podcast that gives you the tools, strategies and stories to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health.

Lauren Hodge

Hi everyone and welcome back to Shake It Off Podcast. Today, Kendra and I are speaking with Jess Mulligan, who is the co founder of Winged Women’s Wellness, a supplement product lines specifically formulated for women to support our stress, and sleep and mood and skin. And Jess is incredibly inspiring. She is a toddler mom and a co founder of a business that is rapidly taking off, her supplements are in Whole Foods, Sprouts, Wegmans, and a lot of other natural health shops and boutique markets.

Jess I have to tell you this, I struggle with sleep, and I know whenever I was looking for solutions, firstly, and something to get me back on track, I learned from sleep researchers that when we’re sleep deprived for an extended period of time, the emotional center of our brain is basically blown. And so that’s why when I haven’t slept, for example, I feel like a toddler and can cry at the drop of a hat, and I’m so emotional. My sleep is so much better now, but I do struggle at times, so I tried a lot of different sleep supplements. I even set up all these different sleep routines that I have, over the years I’ve basically tried probably like six or seven different sleep supplements. Then I tried the Winged Sleepyhead supplement, which is that blend of L theanine, five HTP and melatonin, and it is literally the only thing that has worked for me.

This is not an advertisement guys, like I’m just saying, it is a Christmas miracle because I started taking this last year, and I literally cannot speak more highly of this. I know different things work for different people, and it might not be like a miracle cure for everybody. But for me, it has been incredible. So I’m very grateful for you and your team for creating this Sleepyhead blend, and for everything that you do.

Kendra Till

Yeah, Jess, it’s so nice to have you joining us today. We are so excited, and we have a lot of questions for you today. We’re really curious about your story and your own personal experience with stress and sleep deprivation and moods, etc. So I guess even going back to the start, what ultimately inspired you to start Winged?

Jess Mulligan

Sure. Well, Winged was started from a low point in my life, actually, which I think a lot of great things come out of right when it’s when we get really really uncomfortable that is often a catalyst for great things and major change. But about four years ago, I went through a series of pretty significant life changes in a really short amount of time. I felt like everything about my identity was like rapidly stripped away, like relationship change, job change, lost some loved ones, things like that. My dog that I had had for 16 years. It’s like a sad country song. But I had for about a solid year I had really debilitating anxiety for the first time in my life. And I was always very easygoing growing up, my nickname was smiley, I could literally sleep anywhere I slept standing up once on a train, my grandma will tell you, I was nine years old. Other things that I always took for granted and never thought twice about them. And then when I went through this period of this anxiety that was like straight up debilitating, it manifested in so many ways, sleep in a major way with my sleep, but also social anxiety. I was all of a sudden very uncomfortable in my own skin, and not just with strangers, even with people that are close to me that I’ve known my whole life. Like I just felt like I couldn’t authentically connect to anyone around me.

So I dove into the research and I was like what is going on? Am I ever gonna feel like myself again? Is this just the new me, like God I hope not, you know, did a lot of different things, I went to an endocrinologist, like really dove into therapy. I went to South America did Ayahuasca, I did a lot of things, and I think that that many of them helped. One of the things was a specific protocol that my business partner Tim who’s a Master Herbalist put me on. There were different herbs and botanicals that were really studied to help women specifically balance hormones. And then I was on other things for stress like CBD. So I was taking like eight different supplements really for stress and anxiety and sleep. And I started to feel better, and I remember, there was one night and a light bulb went off, I slept through the night, and it was the first time I slept through the night in eight months. And I woke up and I was like, holy shit, I’m cured. I mean, it was still a long road ahead, you know, still rears its head at me even today. But I just started to wonder why there were no specific blends that were designed for women’s bodies, which ours are.

So that’s really the big differentiator with Winged versus a lot of other supplements on the market. We are specifically designed for a woman’s body. So for example, in the Sleepyhead product that is helping Lauren, there’s chaste tree berry in it and chaste tree berry helps balance hormones and women and often women have estrogen and progesterone peaks and valleys when they sleep, and that can wake us up. It’s like taking this holistic approach that is really very very targeted, and very very specific. So through this process, I also was talking to so many women in my life, and that there was a common theme, like so many women that really looked like they had it all together on the outside, like on Instagram or whatever. So just like so many women that really looked and we’re balancing so much, handling so much, were having these bouts of overwhelm or anxiety almost every single day. So really, like learned through that period, that this is something that wasn’t unique to me that there is a big, like stress epidemic in this country.

And it’s only gotten worse after we all and through COVID, the collective like shitstorm I don’t know if that’s a good way to put it. Yeah, we all went through people are in sleeping people are very, very stressed out. So, you know, that’s like our singular focus is how do we make products that can help women overcome stress? Because when you’re stressed, you can’t sleep. When you’re stressed, you have no energy, you’re when you’re stressed, it affects your skin. Yeah, so that’s what Winged is. And the brand name Winged means that when you’re on solid footing, solid foundation, and you’re not bogged down by stress, overwhelm, anxiety, that’s when you take flight.

Lauren Hodge

That is, it’s like the ultimate freedom whenever you can ride the waves of stress or manage stress or work through it. I just think about your saying whenever we’re stressed, it impairs our ability to focus and to problem solve, and to just like function as a human. So whenever I was experiencing chronic stress, my big thing was sleep, like you’re saying, so it’s interesting that common factor. And then there’s also another number of things that were going on, but I thought to myself, if I can first start, if there’s only one thing I can do it’s to get my sleep right. And to start getting hopefully eight hours, I was for basically like four years getting about three to four hours of sleep, just because of my workload and convincing myself that that was okay. I didn’t look into the science, I don’t think I wanted to know, I was just like, I’m fine. I can do this, I got this, and then it all came crashing down. And it’s so interesting you mentioned that around wanting to look like you’re okay on the outside. Because I would say that was my key priority was I just wanted to look like I had it together. Because I didn’t want to be a big red flag walking around work. And I didn’t want everybody to be like, oh, she can’t hack it or whatever.

Kendra Till

So many, and how your relationships get affected. I mean, it’s just a whole flow on effect from that foundational sleep aspect.

Jess Mulligan

100% I’m so happy that it seems you know, there was I think like probably five to 10 years ago, everywhere would be like hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle and grit hustle and grit like five hours I get up at four in the morning and do XYZ and it seems that the wellness community is now like very backing away from that. Study after study that getting restful sleep is a key factor in longevity. It’s just so important for for everything we do. It’s counterintuitive, but our bodies are actually like really hard at work when we’re sleeping. They’re repairing everything, you know, just setting up for the next day. So when you’re not giving your body the chance to do that work your I mean, you guys know, it’s not a good place to be.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, I mean, it does make sense. In hindsight, I’m like, well, no wonder. Like, everything came crashing down.

Jess Mulligan

I know, I sometimes think like, at the time, you were probably like, what is wrong with me when I did that? And then, you know, of course, hindsight is 2020. Like, I look back, and I’m like, I just want to give that girl a hug and say, like, it’s understandable what you’re going through, you’re not going crazy, like, it’s just a lot, babe. But at the time, you’re like, why can’t I overcome this, and especially women that are, you know, I don’t know if type A is the word, but we’re like uncomfortable with the fact that we can’t figure it out.

Kendra Till

It’s kind of switching the off button really, isn’t it?

Lauren Hodge

So yeah, I have a question. How do you manage, you know, running a business? And like the stressors that come along with that, along with having a family and all of that? What are your big strategies? And how do you manage it all?

Jess Mulligan

I think the biggest difference for me the last couple years has been just being more relaxed about everything, about not feeling really overwhelmed if I don’t get to all the emails, and prioritizing, like starting the day with, hey, if I can get like these two big things done, then I feel really good about about what I you know, whatever it might be, my gosh, it’s done in a day. My early 30s, I was so like, oh, my gosh, I used to fall asleep with my laptop in my lap, like I was such a workaholic. And I really helped so much of my self worth to like doing and producing. The biggest change has just been kinder with myself. And I think I rationalize it, because I’m like, hey, if you get out of the hamster wheel, you are going to be a better leader, you’re going to be able to like think more strategically than if you’re constantly going going going. So maybe that’s why I feel good about it.

Lauren Hodge

And you can be really creative, I feel like right, like when you give yourself the space in your day, I love that strategy of prioritizing one or two things each day and saying, okay, if I can get those things done, I’m happy. And then other things, if they can happen, great. But that’s the priority.

Jess Mulligan

It’s so easy to answer emails and get in the minutia, unload the dishwasher, like whatever, you know So oh, let me go organize my son’s jean drawer or something like that. Just being kinder with myself and realizing. There was an epiphany, I went on a vacation once and I gave my laptop. It was like a wellness retreat, and I did not have my laptop or emails for a week. And I noticed by like Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I hardly got any emails. And what I realized is there’s so much work that gets created by answering emails and the back and forth.

Lauren Hodge

As soon as you reply to an email, there’s something else for you to do. Because usually it’ll come back.

Jess Mulligan

It’s like, how do you manage that? Like, maybe you do it all on one day, a week or two days? I mean, I know that’s not realistic, because obviously we have 911 things but I think time blocking, which I’m starting to do a lot more of and I can definitely can get better at but I think is probably one of the most effective things for time management is just, hey, I’m gonna do emails in these two hours. It’s so hard. It’s so hard not go to your email. But the days when I’m able to actually block out are without a doubt, like the most productive and efficient days.

Kendra Till

Yeah, just being able to compartmentalize it and focus on that. Yeah, I’m the same I if I do that I feel like I’m flowing.

Jess Mulligan

It’s hard, it takes a lot of discipline.

Lauren Hodge

I have to color code things too when I time block because then I know like, which part of the project I’m working on and it helps me, like the biggest thing I think for the last like three years of time blocking has been getting realistic about what I can actually do in a set amount of time for whatever it might be if it’s emails, or if it’s like working on a specific project or doing a slide deck, and I think I can like finish it all in this amount of time. I’m starting to get realistic about what I can do, which is nice, because I used to overshoot it daily.

Jess Mulligan

We overshoot, and then we disappoint ourselves. I think it just chips away at our integrity that we have with ourselves. So that’s yeah, it’d be like kinder to myself. Like, I don’t want to make broken promises. I’m gonna be like, yeah, I’m probably not going to be able to do it.

Kendra Till

Yeah, and feeling okay saying that, you know, being okay saying that.

Jess Mulligan

Lauren, I would love to see your time block color coded. Send it to me.

Kendra Till

And Lauren is always a post it note queen. I’ve always, when we lived together, Lauren had just like post it notes, and I just used to love all of her post it notes everywhere.

Lauren Hodge

I just moved recently, so I had took down all the post it notes that were at my apartment, and I like saved them because I feel like they’re really important. They’re always like messages from books or whatever. Those are your main parties like prioritizing your main strategies or prioritizing, and really making sure that you’re kind to yourself about, like, what can be done and what you’re not able to do?

Kendra Till

I really like that. And just I really love your singular mission of helping women feel good. I just love the simplicity of it. Yeah, how it’s all encompassing. So I just think that’s a really powerful statement. What would you say is one thing that helped your business to successfully launch and take off?

Jess Mulligan

I think that it was probably actually I know, it was probably the targeting the really specific targeting, like figuring out that we wanted to serve one particular need, which actually ends up being a very big need with a big customer base. But you know, just being able to talk directly, I think a lot of businesses, especially like products, they try to be everything to everyone. And we are bombarded by offers and products and just so much noise all hours of the day, and we don’t want any more, right. But if somebody talks specifically to you, then you’re gonna listen. So when we originally launched in 2019, our products did have CBD in them. And we have some CBD products still on our website. But we, because we were specific to women, there were 3000 CBD brands that launched that year. By the way, if I had known that I probably wouldn’t have had started with CBD.

Lauren Hodge

I knew the market was saturated.

Jess Mulligan

The vast I would say 99% of CBD companies are not here today because we had we were really specific targeted to women, it was how we were able to get shelf space. You know, when we soft launched in March, and by July, we had orders for about 1000 stores, you know, because they were like, hey, this is different. This is a different thing to add to my assortment. So I just think anytime anybody starting a business, obviously make sure that you’re filling a need in the market. But then kind of think like really what is my competitive advantage and like how can I make sure that I am offering something that is different than what is already offered?

Lauren Hodge

I like that, did you guys do a lot of market research to determine that or I’m just curious about like the process.

Jess Mulligan

Yeah, it was really organic. It was it was a really organic situation. So it was I was basically having a mental breakdown. I was taking, like I spoke to you. And you know, I called Tim who had put me on all of… we had been at a company together for 12 years that had just gotten acquired that is actually now owned by Clorox. And we were talking about another nutritional supplement company. Isn’t that funny, Clorox bleach companies buying vitamin and supplement companies. So we were like, what’s next? And what are we going to do next? And that’s when I called him and I was like, wait, why are all these things you have me on? Why isn’t this in one product? Why don’t we do something like that? So he was the only man at the last company we were at so automatically, like, he was like, no, no, no. I can’t do something just for women again, like I want to be able to talk to the audience.

But you know, it was when just diving into the research. And so statistically, women are twice as likely as men to experience anxiety disorders, depression, and insomnia. So when we learn that, like, coupled with, you know, after I was also saying, Tim, I’m like this thing I’m going through. So many women are going through something similar, maybe not as severe, but people don’t feel good right now. Like, we got to help them. And then actually, there was like, this big body of research to back that up. He came around to it, but that was sort of the process. It was it was really organic, which was nice. It very much felt like the universe was so behind us on this.

Lauren Hodge

I bet a lot of work as well. But like, I can appreciate that that would have been great to know that like it was falling together in the perfect way. So then I’m curious, because I know the Sleepyhead products work for me. And you’re mentioned research on who do these, like stress and mood and sleep supplements typically work for? Like, what kind of women or what have you guys found there?

Jess Mulligan

Well, the majority of women. Upwards of 60% of women have sleep issues 60%, and anxiety, depression, insomnia is through the roof. Like I said earlier, we’re twice as likely as men to experience these things. Those numbers have increased even, you know, after COVID and everything women went through. So I think anybody, like you know your body, right? If you’re not feeling well, you’re not sleeping well, there is a good chance that something’s going on with your adrenal system or your endocrine system, which is your hormone system. Most of our products will help with your cortisol response, which is your stress response. And many of them also help with hormonal balancing.

So if you’re not feeling good, I would give it a try. You can always also, if you’re more comfortable and you want to verify what’s going on, which I always recommend, but not everybody has the resources or it’s inconvenient, you can do bloodwork that will test different nutritional deficiencies. It’s nice to do something called the Dutch test, which actually tests your hormones to see where you are on that. Estrogen dominance, which we’re launching a new product, which I want to tell you guys

Lauren Hodge

Tell us about it.

Jess Mulligan

It’s called Balance Babe, and it’s two veggie ccapsules a day two of these. So this addresses estrogen dominance, estrogen dominance is probably in fact, I think it is the most common hormonal disorder affecting women. And basically what estrogen dominance is, is when you have too much estrogen in relation to progesterone, and how do we get too much estrogen? Well, lots of different ways. But one of the things that’s so different today versus you know, 50 years ago is all of the endocrine or hormonal disruptors that are in our environment today. Pretty much anything that has a scent to it is is an endocrine disruptor.

Lauren Hodge

This is so interesting to me, because I don’t know a lot about hormones at all, so I’m curious about that. So anything that has a scent to it.

Jess Mulligan

It’s unfortunate, but like to tell you guys this, but I saw this thing on social media, And I think it’s pretty true. They said, the fragrances of today are like the secondhand smoke of yesterday. And they are just in everything. You know, garbage bags come with your laundry, your dryer sheets, all of your beauty products. So a really important thing to do is start buying unscented, I promise your laundry, it’ll be fine. It’s not going to smell like lavender. Our cleaning products, like there’s a great, there’s a great online product called Branch Basics. I recommend that for cleaning products, but we’re just really like assaulted from everywhere with these endocrine disruptors and it’s caught and there’s a lot in our food, there’s so much. So basically what can happen when you’re in estrogen dominance, these are the signs of it. Really bad PMS, cramping, weight gain, irritability, mood swings, breast tenderness, that’s another one. Just not feeling good, feeling lethargic.

So you can do a Dutch test to determine it. Or you can, you know, go on the checklist online, look up estrogen dominance. And if you’re checking all the boxes, there’s a good chance that you have it. So I got my bloodwork done and did a Dutch test. And I found out I was in estrogen dominance. And I also got my first mammogram around the same time, I was told that I have an elevated risk of that, which I don’t want to name but anyway, I elevated risk of breast cancer. And so I really dove into the research is about a year and a half ago on what can I do to… estrogen fuels cancer as well. What can I do to you know, try to control the situation? It isn’t really something you can control. But anyway, I tried that. And one of the things I learned at the same time was that estrogen dominance can cause breast cancer and different cancers. So how do I get the excess estrogen out of my system, I started taking these three products Dim, which is basically from cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower, kale.

Okay, so this is an extract from that because you have to eat a ton to get the amount that’s in a pill, calcium blue krait which you can you pull the bad estrogen out estradiol and then it has to go metabolized through your liver and your lipid pathways. So calcium lootcrate does that and then burdock root, which also helps her liver pathways. I’ve been taking all of these for about a year. This together is probably about $80. So I will say one of the craziest things is my PMS has completely disappeared. I do not even know when I’m getting my period anymore. Because it just shows up. I have no cramping. I have nothing. Okay, so a passion project of mine. There wasn’t this specific combination on the market, you have to buy it separate. So I’ve been spending a lot of money on it. So I said can we put this together so that’s what Balanced Babe is so Balanced Babe. Those things dim, calcium blue krait, burdock root and also trans resveratrol from Japanese knotweed, which is a antioxidant that’s also going to help you detoxify through your liver. So this is gonna be like a superstar product for hormonal imbalancing.

Lauren Hodge

We’ll put a link in the show notes to that and to your website, but also to that product so that people can go and check it out.

Jess Mulligan

I’m excited. I’m so excited. I think it’s gonna be really a game changer for women’s health.

Lauren Hodge

I think all of your products are, especially with the hormonal imbalance that we’ve all experienced and absolute where can our audience find you on like, what’s your website or Instagram?

Jess Mulligan

Our website is wingedwellness.com, and our Instagram is @wingedwomen and then we’re sold that retailers like Whole Foods Market, Sprouts, all the different health and wellness stores throughout the country. Wegmans, like you said earlier, Vitamin Shoppe so we’re we’re pretty widely available. My personal Instagram is @luckyjess917, if anybody listening has a question about any of our products, you can feel free to DM me and I’d be happy to help you in any way I can.

Kendra Till

You can find me at kendratillpilates.com or on Instagram @kendratillpilates. Or if you happen to be in the Bluffton or Hilton Head area, you can do a private or group class with me at The Montage. You can find Lauren on drlaurenhodge.com. Her online course Flow is available right now with strategies to help you get unstuck prevent burnout set habits to manage stress and enhance your mindset. Links or resources that we’ve mentioned are included in our show notes. If you liked what you heard today and find the tips useful, please give us a five star review on iTunes podcast or Spotify and tell us what part you liked about the episode today.

I am honored to introduce Shake it Off listeners to Dr. Raymond Turpin because this discussion builds awareness about a groundbreaking treatment (MDMA-Assisted Therapy) for treatment-resistant Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a condition that traditionally some people live with for a lifetime and are not able to successfully treat.

Ray is the Clinical and Executive Director of Pearl Psychedelic Institute in Waynesville, North Carolina. He is a clinical psychologist and psychedelic therapist. The Pearl Psychedelic Institute is currently the only clinic providing MDMA-Assisted Therapy in the Southeast (USA). In this episode, Ray covers the latest research on the effectiveness of psychedelic therapy for treatment-resistant PTSD, depression, and other mental health conditions.

Kendra and I talked with Ray about how he started working in psychedelic therapy, how MDMA impacts the brain when it is used to treat PTSD, and what the protocol and experience are like if you were to access MDMA-Assisted therapy for PTSD.

You won’t want to miss out on this episode, Ray has decades of experience in trauma therapy and gives us a unique insider’s perspective on what is known about the effectiveness of this type of therapy. He also covers the incredible services they provide at Pearl Psychedlic Institute.

You can find all the podcast episodes at https://www.drlaurenhodge.com/podcast/

We created this podcast to give you the tools, strategies, and stories to handle the unexpected BS that life throws your way. We plant ourselves firmly at the gates of truth-telling and discuss optimizing and prioritizing your physical and mental health.

If you like what you hear, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify and Apple Podcast and tell us what part you liked most.
*This is not medical advice. Please get in touch with your doctor or healthcare practitioner before making any changes to your healthcare plan.*

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Read The Transcript

Kendra Till

Welcome to shake it off a podcast that gives you the tools, strategies and stories to optimize and prioritize your physical and mental health. Welcome back to shake it off podcast today Lauren and I speak with Dr. Raymond Turpin, who is the clinical and executive director of pearl psychedelic Institute in Waynesville, North Carolina. Bremen is a clinical psychologist and psychedelic therapist, pro psychedelic Institute is one of the 10 clinics in the US that are approved to offer MDMA therapy for treatment-resistant PTSD through the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies expanded access program. The Institute is a nonprofit that aims to provide psychedelic assisted therapy to mainstream practice through research, treatment and training, while reducing the barriers to patient access.

Lauren Hodge

We are really excited to have you Raymond on the podcast because the institute is currently one of the only providers of MDMA therapy in the southeast of the US, and we are both really fascinated with the research that’s coming out that shows the effectiveness of psychedelics on treatment resistant PTSD, depression and other mental health conditions. So thank you so much for joining us. Take us through how you started to work with MDMA therapy and your story and experience with it.

Dr. Raymond Turpin

My story was psychedelic started in the mid 80s, I was a sophomore at the University of Georgia, and I was an advertising major actually, and I’d kind of been convinced that what I needed to do was to try to use my creativity and make as much money as possible. That’s kind of what I thought I wanted to do. I had an initial experience after reading some Timothy Leary much to my parents consternation, I had my first psilocybin experience in October of ‘84, and basically what it did was, it was quite profound, and it more or less projected me into a future where I saw myself probably about my age now, at the top of my game in the advertising world, and felt this just profound kind of existential emptiness is the only thing I can explain, and there was almost a voice in my head going, what are you doing, you’re going to try to convince people to buy all this stuff, is that really what you want to do with your life. So that kind of woke me up, and I realized that this knowledge wasn’t in the mushrooms I’d taken, that this actually allowed me to access a part of myself that had either been socialized out.

So I became intensely interested in what happened to me and started to go to the UGA library back in the day when you actually had to go pull volumes off the shelf, and was just astounded at how much research had been already done, particularly with LSD, in the United States and Canada, and in England, in the 50s and 60s, and it was just also surprised at how all of this research, which even though there were lots of criticisms about it, it did end up producing some pretty amazing results. And very encouraging results, let’s just say certainly results that encourage further research. Then the idea that the government stepped in and just squashed all this research. And basically, it was forgotten. For a hobby, I would ask people that went to med school or grad school, “Hey, did you guys ever recover psychedelics in your training?” they’re like, “it got mentioned, but we never really talked about it.” So I started just researching all of the old research, I would go pull these journal articles off the shelves and make copies of them and keep them in a little file., and I was just collecting all this. So I made the decision back then around ’84/’85, that I wanted to switch my major to clinical psychology, and that I really wanted to spend my life trying to understand these compounds and how they could be used, not only for healing mental health issues but also for growth and personal development, because there was quite a bit of that going on in the 60s as well. So that’s kind of what got me going on it and then I just quietly told myself, I’m gonna try to get a good clinical psychology education, get licensed, and in the meantime, continue to do this research and to continue to educate myself about these things in the hopes that one day, I would potentially be able to legally use these compounds to help treat mental illness, which is hopefully we’re on the verge of maybe being legally able to do that now.

Lauren Hodge

Wow.

Kendra Till

And could you explain why MDMA therapy is important and also perhaps what mental health conditions MDMA effectively treats when used along with therapy?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

I’ve been a psychologist for a long time, been in mental health for a long time since the late 80s. About 15 years ago, it just struck me that almost everything I’d ever treated, the etiology of it goes back to some sort of poorly integrated traumatic experience, whether it was PTSD or depression or an anxiety disorder or in kids oppositional defiance, usually traced it back to some type of poorly integrated traumatic experience. So, I began to realize that if we’re going to really get anywhere with treating mental illness, that we’re going to lead to learn how to effectively treat trauma. And so that’s kind of where my focus began, was treating trauma and working on particularly complex trauma. I’ve worked with kids and teenagers and families for many years, and really just saw how intergenerational trauma just gets passed down and just affects generation after generation, and then fuels all these very different mental health and functional issues. So I figured we needed something that was going to effectively treat trauma number one, and there was actually MDMA which is a very old compound that was first discovered in 1914 when it was first synthesized by Merck Pharmaceuticals.

Then it kind of disappeared, the army played around with it a little bit, and in ‘53 when they were trying to do some looking into see if it could be used. They did some animal tests that were unremarkable, and so they moved on. So it was essentially a forgotten compound until 1976, when chemist Sasha Shogun resynthesized it in his lab, tested it on himself, and realized once he got the psychoactive effects that this could really be a nice tool for mental health. Brockman, one of his old friends who was a therapist on the verge of retirement, Leozef, and gave him MDMA, he realized, this could be great for therapy, and went out and spent the rest of his career training therapists how to use psychedelics safely, and also treating patients and all kinds of modalities: groups, individuals, couples. So for a window there between about 1977 and 1985, MDMA was legal, it wasn’t regulated, and so therapists were using it in their practice, but by the time the DEA stepped in and made it a schedule one, there were around 4000 therapists using it in their private practices and doctors using it as adjunct to their mental health practices. So we had a pretty sizable amount of knowledge about how this compound could be used. And it showed up even back then, that it was going to be an extraordinarily potentially effective treatment for trauma and PTSD. But they also saw that it can have incredible uses for any types of intergenerational problems like couples therapy, marriage counseling, things like that. They also were able to successfully treat some depression cases and anxiety, so it looked like it had lots of utility potentially. But definitely it looked like getting is going to be a potentially very effective substance to help people with their traumatic experiences and working through that.

The reason I think that MDMA therapy is so important is because that we have this body of knowledge from the late 70s, and early 80s, and then ever since the formal research got started again, with Charles Grob and his phase one FDA research with MDMA, it started to move into treating PTSD and they wanted to treat treatment-resistant PTSD, they wanted to have some of the toughest cases that was not responding to conventional treatments. So the phase two and phase three research, which phase three is just now concluding, which is the final phase of research before MDMA can be put before the FDA for potential approval. All of these treatments had been really targeting some of the most refractory difficult to treat PTSD cases that were out there. The results from phase two and three, which is where they were treating this PTSD what they showed was, when it’s used in the context of a specialized therapy protocol. It’s not just given the drug, but if you use it carefully in the context of a protocol, then what they found was that people that went through this protocol, in which they received three MDMA treatments roughly, what they found was after they were done with treatment, about 68% of these PTSD folks no longer qualified for a PTSD diagnosis, and about 88% of the participants felt like they had had at least some significant symptom remission, whereas some of those folks even said, “gosh, if I could get one more session, or one or two more sessions, it might do it” but because of the strict structure of the clinical research, they weren’t allowed to get any more. So it seems to be that we’ve got to find something that treats trauma, and I’m talking about intergenerational trauma, domestic violence, sexual and physical abuse for kids. We’re talking veterans come back traumatized with PTSD, and then their families have to cope and deal with it. So if we could find something to interrupt this transmission of trauma, then I think we could potentially be on the verge of a huge leap in psychiatry and psychology treatment for this. So that’s why I think it could possibly provide a key for helping us get in there and interrupt this transgenerational generational transmission of mental illness.

Lauren Hodge

Certainly. So you mentioned that like three sessions are required, is that three sessions with the MDMA? And are there more sessions required around that for the full therapeutic kind of package?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

Yes, generally we have 12 non-drug talk sessions that are about 90 minutes long. Generally, when the patient gets started in the protocol, they have basically three prep sessions that are about 90 minutes, where we just meet and get to know the patient. It’s about building rapport, building trust, getting familiar with the patient’s trauma history, and also familiarizing them with the effects of MDMA, what it’s going to probably feel like, how do you work with it when the MDMA brings up a difficult traumatic memory, how do you use your breath, how do you stay with and work with the memory, so there’s a lot of prep that goes into it. Then they have their first dosing session, which is generally six to eight hours long, there’s two therapists in there. We have two teams, a male and a female in each team, and we’re in there with the patient for six to eight hours for their dosing session. And then they have three more sessions of 90-minute non-drug, and these are called integration sessions, and this is where we’re trying to make sense of what came up in the MDMA session, and how did they take what they learned in that session, and maybe bring it into their everyday life and prepare for session two dosing session. So it’s three prep sessions, a dosing session, three integration preps, dosing session two, three more non-drug 90-minute integration prep sessions, and then you have your final third dosing session.

Then at the end, we have three more 90-minute integration sessions before the protocols end. So it’s really 12 sessions of 90-minute non-drug therapy, and then in the middle of that about a month apart are these six to eight hour MDMA assisted therapy sessions.

Lauren Hodge

So there’s a significant amount of work that goes into the process for both the person and the therapist. I was kind of thinking about this, noticing that you do work in integration, and there isn’t a lot of awareness and attention given to the need for the entire kind of therapy package, including the preparation and integration. I think a lot of people expect that you just take the medicine, you trip and you’re done. Like the trips, the only part when really, it’s a small part of the entire process, or the experience for long-term change. I wonder, for example, I think about how, during the psychedelic experience and for a period of time afterwards, you are in this incredibly expanded state, and if that is followed, oftentimes by it’s a contracted state, or maybe the environment isn’t supportive, or maybe your peers or your spouse, or your job is resistant to the change that you feel like you need to make, or the information that comes to you during that session.

Maybe even you’re experiencing extreme financial stress, but whatever it is, the environment isn’t set up to support that expanded state and for you to act on that expanded state, then you can see your potential and your future possibilities while in that expanded state, but you can’t actually make the changes or act on those changes that you need to make if the environment isn’t supportive. So if you don’t have all of this information that you’re providing around the importance of the process. So I just wonder how do you set up a client to have the most potential for change and to foster long-term results from the experience?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

It’s the integration piece, if just taking psychedelics made you wiser, kinder, more expanded, then our society would be a whole lot better off right now. So what we find is that just like you said, I look at psychedelics a lot of times, they’re like a disrupter. They go in and they break up patterns, they allow you to step outside of your normal way of seeing things. And like you said, you see possibilities, you’re able to see options, you’re able to see things with fresh eyes sometimes and in different ways. So what we’ve learned is that it is so important to spend the time following these experiences because these types of experiences are not very well accepted in our culture.

We don’t have any social blueprints out there for people that if you go out and have a powerful psychedelic experience, we already have things in our system in our society that are set up to help you integrate and make sense of it, those don’t really exist very much. We’re moving in that direction, but you’ve got to be able to take what you experienced, what you saw, what you felt, what you learned, things that you might have glimpsed, possibilities, and potentialities. Then the real work is after the session where you figure out how are you going to make sense of these things, and then how are you going to bring them into your everyday life in a way where they’re relevant and that they are supportive and encouraging of the changes that you want to make. And to me, that’s the real work. One of the issues I have with ketamine clinics popping up all over the place is that you have some that do a really good job that recognizes what’s going on and that you have an opportunity to make some real changes, and they put the time in for the prep.

There’s someone in there supporting the patient during the ketamine and then you have the integration work afterward. But there’s a lot of them that are just you just come in, you get hooked up to the ketamine and then you’re kicked out the door after a while and there’s no follow-up, there’s no support during the session. These are the ones that I feel like they’re just relying on the ketamine to do the work, and the first thing I tell the patient that’s coming in that’s interested in doing our ketamine-assisted therapy program is don’t expect the ketamine to do the work for you. You’ve got to work with the ketamine between sessions if you’re going to make this work. So the integration is I think the thing that we probably learned all through the 60s where we had a lot of people experimenting, they weren’t very well prepared, they weren’t using it in situations that were very conducive to the psychedelic experience, and then like I said, because there was no social or societal or cultural blueprint for how to make sense of these experiences, people were just often left to their own devices to try to figure out what was that? Was it just some weird thing where I left a lot of music sounded good, or were there things that I learned that I need to carry forth into my life. And so I think that’s probably the biggest difference between psychedelic-assisted therapy and research these days than what was going on in the 50s and 60s is that we have recognized that if we don’t take that time to really work with the integration process, and to help these people bring these insights into their everyday life, then we’re not maximizing the potential of these medicines.

Lauren Hodge

Yeah, certainly 100%. I’m just curious about a couple of things there that I’m thinking about, how long does that MDMA trip experience last for a client? Thinking back to what the model looks like and what it feels like for a client whenever they’re going through that. I don’t know if you can talk us through what that would look like, especially for someone when they’re trying to identify whether this is working or those types of things.

Dr. Raymond Turpin

Well, for expanded access, and the protocol that was used for the phase two and the phase three MDMA-assisted therapy protocols, what happened was after all the preparation work, basically, the patient would come in usually in the morning, and they would be given their initial dose of MDMA, which typically was somewhere between 80 and 120 milligrams. Then what happened was about an hour and a half after that first ingestion, maybe two hours later, then they’re offered a booster dose, which is typically half of what the initial dose was. So let’s say someone got 100 milligrams at 10 o’clock in the morning, then around 1130 to 12, they’re gonna get a 50-milligram boost, they’re asked if they want it, they have the right to refuse it, but most people take the booster dose. The idea is not that this booster dose is going to make the person higher, but what happens is that when MDMA is fully active in the brain, several things are happening, which I can go into later if you guys are interested, but for the sake of brevity for this answer. What happens was MDMA tends to put the brain and the patient in what is considered to be an optimal window of tolerance, meaning that as their trauma material is coming up, certain things are happening in the brain to where they’re able to sit with those memories, and they’re able to do the processing that they need to do.

One of the problems conventional PTSD treatment has is that when people start to encounter their PTSD or their trauma memories, very oftentimes they go into fight or flight or freeze mode, and they can’t engage with the therapy and sometimes they flee therapy and they never go back. But MDMA does some things in the brain that allows the person to be able to tolerate these memories and there are other things going on that really are encouraging the processing of this material like it should have been at the time of the trauma if you weren’t in survival mode. So what happens is by taking that booster dose, it keeps that top of that optimal window of tolerance open longer, so that the person can stay in this optimal therapeutic space and do the most possible work. So I would say probably when you take that first dose of MDMA, most people are going to feel the effects within about 20 to 60 minutes, and then the booster dose will, like I said, leave that window open longer. And I would say, typically, people feel those effects for anywhere from five to eight hours, six to eight hours is what we expect to use when we have a patient in there for one of their dosing sessions. After six to eight hours, I would say most of the real processing is over at that point, people are tired, and people are ready to just kind of get some rest and take a break. So it’s still a long day for the therapist, you can’t sit there and check your emails or on your phones or any of that you got to be fully present, providing the safety in this container, and to be really ready to provide support should it be necessary if the patient’s having a hard time or asking for support.

Lauren Hodge

That is incredible. I actually have PTSD, I was diagnosed with PTSD when I was 19, and I experienced those symptoms all the way up until I was in my early 30s. I actually first tried ketamine therapy at a clinic, and they didn’t, as you mentioned, have the appropriate integration therapy, they didn’t have any, there was no integration. It was also about where I was at in life, at that time, I was actually living in Australia, but I went to a clinic here in the US, and I needed to get back to Australia for work, and I wasn’t able to do the follow-up and all of that. So therefore, the effects lasted for about three weeks, and then things went back to how they were before with my PTSD symptoms and being triggered and sleepless and all of that.

And then I had psilocybin, I went to the synthesis Institute in the Netherlands, and I took a sabbatical and moved to Berlin, so I did a weekend retreat, but they did all the preparation online beforehand, and the integration afterward, and that was the first time that I really experienced those healing effects. Now, I didn’t go through the process of processing it with somebody, there was no talk therapy involved in that, it was a group setting. But the symptoms that I was experiencing, and the ruminating thoughts, and all of that completely dissipated. So I can definitely relate to what you’re saying around like how that works in a way. But it sounds like MDMA might work a bit differently than psilocybin. I actually have no idea. Does it impact the default network like psilocybin, or what happens there?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

No, it’s different. And one of the things about psychedelic-assisted therapy, which is such a paradigm-changing idea is that psychedelic-assisted therapy practitioners believe that we all carry the wisdom that we need to heal ourselves, there’s this thing we call the inner healing intelligence, but when you think about things like homeostasis, the idea that the body is wired to kind of have this optimal temperature, heart rate, respiratory respiration rate, the idea that the brain would be wired for psychological balance, to me isn’t all that much of a stretch.

And if we could just get our egos and get ourselves out of the way the brain knows how to balance ourselves and rebalance. I think that’s what it’s trying to do at night when we’re dreaming, for example. So when we’re doing psychedelic-assisted therapy, there’s very often not that much of a need for a therapist to be an active guide, and to be in there manipulating the session, you just basically stand back and you provide the support, the containment, the sense of safety, and you let the person work with the compound internally and let them do their own healing and the healing can look a million different ways. So that’s one of the big differences between psychedelic-assisted therapy and some of the old medicines that we’ve used in psychiatry.

Lauren Hodge

Thanks for clarifying that because I didn’t actually know whether or not MDMA therapy included talk therapy or not, but my experience has been with the other types of psychedelic therapy that there wasn’t. So, that’s good to know.

Dr. Raymond Turpin

I would say with MDMA, there seems to be a little more talking than you see with psilocybin like with psilocybin so these people just really kind of go in for hours and very little interaction. MDMA, you’ll see people will sit up and take off their headphones and eye shades and they’ll want to start talking about what just happened and what they just experienced. So that’s also part of the healing process, putting words to your experience. So there is a good bit of interaction between therapists and patients, usually during MDMA-assisted therapy, but it’s not directed by the therapist, we’re just there. But oftentimes, people want to get up and talk about their experience, and so that’s one of the things we do is we’re there to listen and talk about their experiences. But when you’re treating trauma with psilocybin, psilocybin is what they call one of the classic psychedelics like LSD, mescaline, DMT, and they all work very similarly in the brain. And one of those mechanisms that makes it so effective for things like depression, PTSD, basically, most of the things that they treat, is they do take that default mode network, and it basically shuts down, which allows all these other areas of the brain that don’t normally communicate, to come online and that’s why you see things in novel ways.

That’s why you see, do you have different ideas and see things with fresh eyes, it’s like your brains coming online, and this default mode network, that was the seed of so much rumination and depression, and that all just kind of goes away for a while and allows you to see things as they are a little bit differently than you’ve been accustomed to. MDMA is different, basically what happens is with PTSD, when your five senses are absorbing information, and you’re not stressed, and you’re not being threatened in any way. Basically, the information processing system is where it comes into the thalamus, which is this egg-shaped structure in the middle of the brain. It’s like the cook in the kitchen organizing information, it checks to see if there’s any danger in the environment, that’s the amygdala, the smoke alarms that fire when there’s danger that starts the fight or flight or freeze reaction. And then basically, if there’s no danger, the information goes up to this part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, where it checks to see where we have encountered something like this before it checks your past experiences, language is assigned to it. But the memory is organized as to what is happening to you, and where have we experienced something like this before, and then it goes back down to the thalamus and the hippocampus, and then eventually, it gets stored up in a long term, like a long term memory. But with PTSD and trauma, what happens is this information is coming from the five senses to the thalamus, but then there’s some threat in the environment that it’s picking up, probably maybe life-threatening. And so what happens is once that threat is picked up, the amygdala fire, and then the brain switches into a very primitive mode of processing because you’re going into survival mode, you’re in fight or flight. And so what happens is that the whole prefrontal cortex part of the brain just goes offline. And so there’s no language getting assigned to your experience, there is no context, there are no reference points for what is happening to you.

So all this experience, this traumatic experience that’s happening to you gets basically jammed into the wrong area of the brain and a very fractured, highly emotionally charged bits of information. And because it’s improperly stored, this is what causes a lot of the problems with PTSD, the intrusive memories and nightmares, the flashbacks. It’s basically all this fragmented, highly charged information that is improperly stored in the brain, and that’s what makes PTSD so difficult to treat. I had a Vietnam vet at one of our movie nights a while back, he had PTSD for over 40 years, and he was still suffering. He said for the first 20 years, he was just so angry, and for the last 20 years, he’s just really sad. So what MDMA does, which is why in my book, I think psilocybin is a very effective treatment for many things. I think MDMA is so well true to treat suited to treat PTSD because what happens is, as the MDMA becomes active in the brain, what happens is that amygdala, the fight or flight structures, they go down 95%, they get shut down, so that fight or flight or freeze reaction is almost turned off.

The other thing that happens is it hyper-activates the prefrontal cortex, which is the area of the brain where you need to do that higher-order thinking that processing where language is assigned. And so what happens is in MDMA therapy, when the MDMA becomes active in the brain when the amygdala goes down, and the fight or flight is shut off, it allows trauma memories to rise up and to come into consciousness because typically, we’re always fighting to keep those out of consciousness. So when the amygdala goes down, the trauma memories can come back up, and people can live them and go back through them without the fight or flight or the freeze kicking in. The other thing that happens is that these memories are allowed to go up to the prefrontal cortex where they’re sorted in a given context and language and a narrative is established about what happened to the person.

It’s exactly what should have happened at the time of the trauma if they weren’t so freaked out about dying or getting hurt. And so what it does as it goes on, it finally processes these memories like they should have been processed and then they end up going up and eventually being stored up in the frontal lobes like a normal memory. It doesn’t create any amnesia, you don’t forget, it’s still a terrible thing that happened to you. But because this information has now been put together in a cohesive narrative, and stored in the part of the brain where it always should have been, it’s no longer interrupted. It’s no longer intruding on consciousness, it doesn’t have the power to disrupt people’s lives as it once did. So that’s why MDMA is so well suited for treating PTSD.

Lauren Hodge

Interesting. Are people eligible for this expanded access program? Do you have to meet certain eligibility criteria?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

Yes, I’m not allowed to discuss them in detail, but there are a large number of exclusion and inclusion criteria that the FDA and maps had to agree upon in order for the FDA to approve expanded access. They’re pretty extensive, and to be honest, we have been recruiting for our first MDMA patient, we’ve been recruiting to recruit since about March, and we’re just now I think about to get our first guy because we’ve had so many screen fails for various reasons, some of them because of the criteria, others have been for other reasons. But basically, in order to qualify, you need to have what’s considered treatment-resistant PTSD. I will say the definition of treatment-resistant is pretty lax, basically, you just need to demonstrate that you’ve had some attempts at either therapy and or medications.

There are medical issues that we need to get screened out for. One of the things we do know is that with MDMA it does increase blood pressure, and it does increase heart rate. So if people have cardiovascular issues, strokes, and things like that, they’ll get screened failed. Then they also because, we’re trying to find that pool of treatment-resistant PTSD folks, we also are trying to screen out folks that have bipolar, anybody that has any kind of psychotic disorder screened out. So there are actually a lot of criteria in order for somebody to make it all the way through the screening process. But right now, I would say if anybody out there has PTSD that they’ve been trying to get help for, and it hasn’t been effective, I would encourage him to at least possibly holler at us and give us their information so that we can have them in our database. And we can at least maybe hook them up when the time’s right, because hopefully there’s going to be clinics all over maybe in a few years, and then we’d like to be able to help these people find treatment.

Lauren Hodge

Great. Where did they find you?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

Yeah, if you go to our website, it’s pearlpsychedelicinstitute.org, And if you go to our website, there’s the page for how to get considered for the study for the program.

Kendra Till

Now I’m curious Raymond, so what’s next for the institute then? In terms of where you’re at with the research, etc, where are you guys at? What do you see for the future?

Dr. Raymond Turpin

Well, right now, we are focused on getting the MDMA-assisted therapy going, we have an exciting project going with Duke University, they have a center for Psychedelic Studies that they opened up. And so MAPS has approved where they’re going to come in and work with us, and they’re going to take a look and work it with our MDMA patients. And what they want to do is they want to take EEG readings of our patients’ brains before treatment, and then in the middle of treatment, maybe after one or two MDMA sessions, and then they want to do another EEG reading at the end of treatment. So this is going to be fascinating, because by looking at the EEG before treatment, there may be the possibility of delineating what subtypes of PTSD people are coming with. And then we can also take a look at it in the middle, in between treatments, and then at the end so that they can see, what happens when people get their PTSD is essentially well treated. What changes in the brain? What kind of things do we see differently in the EEGS? And are there particular types of PTSD that don’t respond to MDMA? And which kind can possibly do?

There’s a dissociative subtype of PTSD, which is historically very, very difficult to treat, because when people start to get up close to that traumatic material, they dissociate, they go away, and it’s not something they choose to do. It’s an automatic primitive defense system that they’ve used for years. And it makes it very difficult to treat these people with conventional methods. And so there was some question about whether these folks would respond as well as non-dissociative PTSD folks to MDMA. And there was a study that was published out of phase three, it was published in May of 2021, I believe, and they looked at, I think, 90 patients, and around 30% of those patients that had a positive response to the MDMA-assisted therapy had the dissociative subtype. So it does seem to work with the dissociative subtype as well. So we’ve got this exciting project going with Duke that we’re looking forward to partnering with. And we really want to kind of partner with them and help them, they really want to do a lot of research, and they really want to find some community places out there around North Carolina that could actually help them conduct the research. So we’re hoping to have a nice fruitful relationship with the folks at Duke. So we’re going to focus on the expanded access. We are ramping up our ketamine-assisted psychotherapy program here in Waynesville, we’ve been doing it for a few years, so we feel like we kind of know what we’re doing.

So now we want to bring it to parole because one of the drawbacks of ketamine-assisted therapy is it’s quite expensive usually. So we’re looking at some group models and with our nonprofit, we’re going to look at some funding models and ways to really try to open up access for people so that they can come to get this treatment if they want to try it. So we’re going to focus on the ketamine-assisted therapy program, and we also are rolling out in January, our psychedelic integration services, and these can be online. People can come to Waynesville and see me or we can meet online. But these are for people that have had psychedelic experiences, also other deep experiences, maybe of the unconscious that they don’t understand. But the idea is if you’ve had a psychedelic experience, and you got in contact with some information, or you’re having trouble understanding what it meant, psychedelic integration is about helping folks make sense of those experiences. And what do those images mean? How do you bring them into your life? How do you incorporate them so that they’re relevant? And how do you maybe use them for growth? So that’s something we want to do, and probably preparation. We don’t want to look like we’re encouraging people, but we know people are out there. As this is starting to grow, people are wanting to experiment, and so we do want to also make it so that if there is somebody out there thinking about experimenting, we would love to be able to at least show them how to use it safely and responsibly so that they can hopefully have a good experience, and just more than anything, do it in a safe way.

Lauren Hodge

All right, certainly. Well, I think in North Carolina, and in the southeast, we’re really lucky that your institute is there. And for anybody that is curious, if you meet the inclusion criteria, please go on to the Pearl Institute Psychedelic Institute website, we’re going to put those links in our show notes so that you can find the information that you need in order to attempt to apply for that.